We all die, so why bother with Jehovah if the worst is annihilation?

by InterestedOne 64 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • InterestedOne

    DanaBug wrote:

    Well, there is Armageddon, which looks pretty painful and terrifying in illustrations. But if you die before it comes, you get around that.

    I was thinking about that, but I don't know of any promise that JW's will not suffer during the big A (correct me if I'm wrong). There is only the promise that they will survive it. Then they build the paradise in which there will be no suffering. Wow. It could almost be interpreted in a more general secular way - one group has "the truth," i.e. knows how things are supposed to be, there is a big war that wipes out everyone except those in the special group, the special group survives and builds a paradise. Just a tangent there.

    Heaven wrote:

    2) You risk your family if they decide to kick you out because they decide you aren't good enough including the items listed in #1 above.

    I think this (also applied to friends) is one of the more meaningful threats the JW's present. I could see how people who don't care about ceasing to exist or riding lions, etc. would still participate in this group just to be able to interact with their friends who would otherwise cut them off for the most part. Quite a threat indeed.

  • agonus

    The WT has no need for the threat of an imaginary Hell. Disfellowshipping/shunning is hell on earth, so imaginary hell would be redundant.

  • Perry
    Is this what you really believe or is this your solution to the problem of sin and evil? If someone swindled you out of your life savings , say like that recent Madoff character, would you just want a judge to simply forgive him?

    dgb answers:

    Mm... HELL, YEAH! This is what I believe.

    So the answer for many unbelievers is yes, judgment is OK as long as it's not them being judged. And the tradegy is that at some point a person doesn't see the abomination it this hypocrisy. And it is utterly hypocritical.

  • sabastious

    Awesome post, and that exchange needs to be an animation.


  • tec
    The religious mind cannot possibly comprehend the notion that one person might actually want to cease to exist. Accepting that as a valid option would mean that all their toilings can be considered nonsense. This is one question they are not ready to answer, whatever the persuasion.

    I can comprehend it. I think most people want more time than what they have, but I can comprehend that some people just want to become nothing at some point.

    No more exhaustion, no more fear, no more worry...

    I can also understand some accepting their death and subsequent nothingness, because they've lived a full and happy and satisfying life... but I don't know that those people would be celebrating their death and nothingness. I can also understand those who are afraid of judgment and condemnation, who would happily take nothing in their place.

    Nothing almost seems more appealing to me than the JW 1000 year reign, and the fear and unworthiness and helplessness that would accompany those people for those thousand years. I can imagine that many of them, after a thousand years of those emotions and stress and fear, would be happy for nothing too. I remember being completely exhausted just thinking that after a thousand years of learning it all right, trying so hard... lots of people would STILL be judged and die at the end. THEN it would be over. It made this life seem absolutely worthless and pointless.


  • DanaBug

    And there's one reason for so much depression among Jw's, Tammy.

    Christianity does have a good thing going, getting to live in heaven with God, the one they've developed a relationship with. Paradise earth for eternity is nothing compared to that.

  • designs


    You need to take a lesson in Christian Theology 101. The majority of christian religions teach that the saved return to this earth with Jesus at the Second Advent and live forever on earth with him, Catholics, most Protestants and Evangleicals. Only Lutherans and a few other Denominations reject this and believe Christians will live in heaven forever.

    Study and know what your damn religion's teachings first................

  • tec
    Study and know what your damn religion's teachings first................

    You don't always sound like you know what it teaches, either, Designs. And obviously, she wasn't wrong about Christian theology, since some teach this exact thing. Most Christians believe that people do go to heaven and live as spirit (like the angels), rather than God and Christ and the Kingdom coming to earth. Either way... its still people living WITH them - (and also like the angels) and not what JW's teach about some in heaven and some on earth.


  • designs

    Tammy- they are all guessing ...that's why its called theology, Theology is one of the simplist things to learn, and it doesn't matter really does it.

    Most 'Christians' don't know what is taught at the Seminaries of their own particular Denomination ala the comment from Dana. Call up Dallas theological Seminary in Houston Texas, ask them about Jesus return to this earth and setting up his Kingdom here then ask your Evangelical on the street about the afterlife and where they expect to spend eternity. I've heard the same mistake countless times at Sermons and Funerals and in speaking with Theologians like Hofstetter who readily admits its just plain wrong for the Preachers to mislead their flocks this way.

  • bohm


    If someone swindled you out of your life savings , say like that recent Madoff character, would you just want a judge to simply forgive him?

    so are we are being judged because we all swindled with other peoples money like Madoff?

    oh wait.. its something else.. something about sin and adam and eve and a talking snake if i recall. Something about God getting mad because they ate the wrong kind of fruit. But the illustration with Madoff is easier to argue from, i suppose, i mean its the same illustration you used the last time around.

    But if we return to what you actually believe, all of a sudden its not about obvious swindlers, its this cosmic crisis with a God in the middle who act really really strange. I could speculate the illustration would be more suited for what you actually believe if:

    • The judge got really angry and desided Madoffs great great grandchildren should be punished physically for Madoffs errors.
    • If the judge for a periode of 6000+ years should permit other of swindling to proove it is best if noone swindle.
    • Torture, where is the torture in the illustration? I really miss that... And the judges son. I wonder what kind of work he has.

    But i suppose that in that case you would accuse me of just making up an irrelevant (but argumentative convenient) illustration, completely unlike what you are doing now..

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