We all die, so why bother with Jehovah if the worst is annihilation?

by InterestedOne 64 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Perry
    Yes, that's what I'm saying. A good God would simply forgive.

    Is this what you really believe or is this your solution to the problem of sin and evil? If someone swindled you out of your life savings , say like that recent Madoff character, would you just want a judge to simply forgive him? In that case wouldn't that make the judge himself a swindler by extension, an enabler? Forgiveness without consequences and punishment is empty and isn't love. It is very cheap. God enterwines both forgiveness and punishment in/to himself.

    I don't understand who the atonement was paid to, since we are to assume it redeemed us.

    The current search for Madoff's wealth, when recovered is paid to who? The victims of course. But what if a multi-billionaire stepped up and wanted to pay Madoff's debt? He would pay it to Madoff who would then apply it to his debtors so he could be free. The atonement is paid to all who owe a debt, and who accept it according to the terms of the New Testament Contract and actually want to get out of prison and be free of sin and its consequence death.

    But if the good guy sent his son to redeem us, why can't he just give up judgment?

    Oh but he does, that's the Good News: John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. There is still a judgment for believers, but it determines rewards and not salvation. It is called the Bema Seat - or the judgment seat of Christ. For these, the issue of Salvation was forever settled with Jesus last dying words, "It is finished".

    One of the reasons that people reject Jesus' atonement on their personal behalf is because they believe that they do not owe a debt to God or anyone else. The acceptance of the sacrifice implies the acknowledgement personal guilt, and this is what makes Christianity so repulsive to some of the unregenerate.

    Shall we presume that there is something greater than himself, that makes scapegoats, Jesus sacrifice, and judgment inevitable? Can't he just forgive?

    Let's go back to Madoff. Even if a billionaire paid him enough money so he could pay back his debt, it would still take a judicial act to free him from prison. But why do it if he has same nature as before? But, this is what Jehovah does through the agency of the Holy Spirit and the condition of the new birth. He frees them by taking away the sin nature and preponderance of sin in the spirit of man.... a new creature. This is another powerful reason to reject Jesus; many do not want a new nature, them being comfortable with their present one.

    I wonder why God would appear in Jerusalem but would make it a point of people NOT recognizing him.

    God is not responsible for the non-recognition: John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

    He was simply not what they imagined God to be. (singing Cheryl Crow) "What if God were one of us; Just a stranger on a bus"

    Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

    Know one will see God until they see their debt first. Even then they must gaze upon he who was nailed to a tree, lifted up and planted in the earth up on Calvary hill.


  • Broken Promises
    Broken Promises

    So if we don't see God, it's our own fault. Sheesh, what a loving god.

  • designs

    Christianity is built on superstitions and ignorance. Like Islam and Hinduism and the Greek Gods it models the Son/God after it portrays God as silly, obleek, mean and cruel. If you are a parent you recognize this disturbing trait. You would never do what this Son/God claims he has in store for humanity nor did you ever threaten your children the way this Son/God threatens humanity. The history of Christianity , the way it has played out, proves the falicy of its philosophy.

    There is a tremendous amount of good we do each day, we are good people setting the groundwork for generations to come.

  • Perry
    There is a tremendous amount of good we do each day

    Madoff was an excellent father, family man, and philanthrophist.

    He is not in prison for the good that he did.

  • designs

    Of course a sick example comes from someone up to his eyeballs in a Cult. Perry, do you remember when you had the Aha moment sitting in a Kingdom Hall, I remember mine, and I also remember having another Aha moment sitting in a Calvary Chapel Church thinking what a load of crap.

    'Christianity in a nutshell: 'I love you, love me or else'. Right up there with the all time nut case philosophies to grip humanity.

  • dgp

    I said before that Perry didn't get the point, but now I'm starting to believe that he DOES get it.

    The thread is about how religious people are left without arguments if you tell them that you don't want eternal life. I added that they are even more befuddled if you tell them you don't believe there is a judgment, and that you consider yourself warned but don't believe anyways. Perry keeps giving reasons to believe.

    This is another powerful reason to reject Jesus; many do not want a new nature, them being comfortable with their present one.

    Yep. Many people are perfectly happy the way they are. Isn't this the very attitude we are talking about?

    By the way,

    Yes, that's what I'm saying. A good God would simply forgive.
    Is this what you really believe

    Mm... HELL, YEAH! This is what I believe.

  • InterestedOne

    Religious people who believe in a punishment of conscious eternal suffering (e.g. many Christians) can use that threat to motivate an uninterested person and use it as a reason to continue the dialogue - i.e. "I care about you and don't want you to suffer for all eternity." I was just wondering if JW's have any kind of intense threat like that to provide motivation. If I understand correctly, the only threat they can present is that you will cease to exist. I can't imagine most people would think that's a big deal. Just so I'm clear, is this the extent of the JW message: serve Jehovah by obeying the WT org and maybe you'll go to paradise, or don't obey the org and cease to exist? Is that it?

  • james_woods
    So are you saying that you believe a good God should not judge evil? Wouldn't that make him evil since he has the means but refuses to do so?

    Hasn't God done just that all through human history?

  • DanaBug

    Well, there is Armageddon, which looks pretty painful and terrifying in illustrations. But if you die before it comes, you get around that.

    You're first post, IO, is really close to how I felt when I got df'd. I won't ever measure up, so I might as well enjoy the life I have. Plus, eternity never really appealed to me. Some extra time on earth would be nice, but not eternity.

  • Heaven

    I was just wondering if JW's have any kind of intense threat like that to provide motivation.

    I think the intensity varies depending on each individual's situation. The threats that are used on JWs are as follows:

    1) You risk your eternal life if you do not participate in the ministry and the meetings and if you do not follow their doctrine.

    2) You risk your family if they decide to kick you out because they decide you aren't good enough including the items listed in #1 above.

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