by TheStumbler 49 Replies latest jw friends
Welcome The Stumbler,
if your dad is still an elder why don't you take out the Reasoning of the Scriptures book
all through out this book it states that the generation that saw the beginning would be the
one's to see the end and they are still currently using this book.
On pages 97, 200, 234, 239 and 242 in this book states that this generation ( the one who saw the beginning)
not an overlaping generation. Would be the ones to see the end
Awake! May 22, 1969
Hi Wasblind,
I've casually brought up the new generations thing.
Funnily enough, I didnt even bring up 'new light' or mention that some old teachings were wrong - he brought it up himself when he was talking about Christmas.
He said something along the lines of 'Jehovah's witnesses are imperfect humans so sometimes make mistakes, you know we used to celebrate Christmas - some people say that proves us wrong but we arent afraid to admit past mistakes - the truth grows brighter' (or something like that)
I thought celebrating christmas was a relatviely trivial example of 'old light' so I replied 'yes, much like the new overlapping Generations teaching' - which is of course a much more fundamental doctrinal change. I don't think he liked that very much and the fact that I knew about it made him a bit suspicious (I told him my Witness friend told me about it)
So, yeah I'm kind of hoping if he reads some of the old publications about pyramidology, Christ's return in 1874, Armagheddon in 1914/5, 1925 etc that maybe some little spark of independant thought might ignite.
How many Witnesses are aware of this stuff? I get the impression he knows relatively little about the organisations history.
Heaven, I've heard Steve Hassan's book, seems to get quite a few mentions on here - it's been on my radar for a little while. I know it reccommends not getting into a debate with a cult member but rather dropping subtle comments now and again to get them to think for themselves. If you criticise the cult at all they put up their defences.
One point I have pushed my dad on, and not let him side-step, was the definition of 'yohm' in Genesis. My question was 'What context of 'yohm' in Genesis requires that is cross referenced with a figurative meaning rather than literal meaning (its primary useage).
I even wrote the question down on papaer because the next day he just gave me a Watchtower magazine that loosely covered
the subject but did not actually answer my question. I am fairly sure that the cross references they use are arbritrary and if so he will not be able to find me an answer. I think his answer may be that the men in Brooklyn are 'spirit guided' he intimated as much before but I think he knows
that is a weak answer because he seemed reluctant to come out and say it.
If he is unable to find an answer and discovers for himself that the cross references are arbritrary will this make him see a major flaw in Watchtower's methodology?
I know should be able to just accept that it's his religion and let him get on with it but it has done real damage to the family and to be honest, since he's become an 'Elder', I have been uncomfortable with the fact that he takes part in practices I deeply disagree with (Judicial Committees etc)
I think sometimes I'm the one with the problem then, at a funeral a couple of weeks ago he tells me loudly (so others could hear) that the priest was wrong and 'taking scripture' out of context - then I think, nah he's the one with the problem.
hmmm, Daddy issues. :)
It depends. Some JWs are knowledgeable about it. One JW runs a website that has a lot of historical stuff:
http://www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/
Most JWs are familiar with this book: The Finished Mystery, published in 1917. You can read it here:
http://www.a2z.org/wtarchive/docs/The_Finished_Mystery.pdf
It's searchable. Do searches for 1918 in it to see what they were predicting for that year. Also search for "faithful and wise servant" and you'll see it taught that C.T. Russell was "that servant." (They believed that from about 1897 to 1927. The Finished Mystery has a bunch of other crazy stuff in it that most JWs are unaware of -- though it figures prominently in their historical consciousness.
The Stumbler.... Steve Hassan talks about finding the theme or ideal that will trigger them to see the real truth. He actually asks people outright what it would take for them to leave their organization. Perhaps the direct approach would be better so you know where to focus your efforts.
As for the book of Genesis, as well as the rest of the Bible for that matter, once you realize that it was written by Middle Eastern men, it takes on a whole different meaning. Take the gospels of John and Mark and compare what is written there regarding the accounts of Christ's death and resurrection. There are glaring contradictions. How can that be if the Bible is the inerrant word of God? Well, the simple answer is, it isn't the inerrant word of God but rather a book written to control the masses.
As for your father and his actions at that funeral, my Dad did something very similar except that he was bragging to me and my bro about how he could run rings around the minister scripturally. My bro says "Yeah, well, opinions are like assholes. Everyone's got one." and he walks away. I'm left standing there with my Dad trying so hard not to LOL.
I have been feeding my Dad information for years. I've never asked him outright what it would take for him to leave. Maybe I should but at this point, his mind is no longer functioning properly so I only give him info. if he brings up the subject.
I wish you luck with him. His whole attitude is that he is right and you are wrong. It's tough to overcome that. I know as I have lived it.
Invetigator74 brings it out, kindgom halls are geting rid of older publications. So the source of any you find would be questionable to a current witness. Earlier this year, it has been now discouracged to supply or receive recordings of talks from some brother or congregation besides your own. This used to be commonplace everywhere I went. So I don't know how much weight an older publication may go toward your father if the idea that the GB is inserting is not to trust any sources except the local congregation and current material with new light.
Thy Kingdom Come (also known as Study in the scriptures vol3) book is amazing and I would strongly recommend it. This book opened my eyes totally and after reading it there was no turning back. It describes how different dates were derived from nonsense and Great Pyramid, God dwelling in Pleadis and all of that. Also different edition of this book contain different measurements of the pyramid's hallways which were used to calculate different dates including 1914 and even though the measurements differ the results are always the same.....
Sometimes you can compare new wts mags quoting old material and then you go and find the old mag where the quote is taken from. Read the whole article and then ask your dad what does he think the new article means when it says...... And then show him the original article and what it talks about. I think there was an article quoting Million Now Living Might Never Die sometime in the spring of 2010 while it implied different ideas the original article is an eye opener for any sincere wts follower.
You're on the right track, only use wts publications and maybe court transcripts as those are hard for jws to dismiss.
if you want some old publications including some of those mentioned have a look at your pm.
It depends on how badly your witness wants to believe in their religion in regards to how effective this will be.
I pulled some old WT quotes from jwfacts.com and showed my wife that the Society use to preach worship of Jesus up until the 1950's. Did you know that she found one of the articles that site quoted, read it, and insisted that the article did not preach worshipping of Jesus? The article never explicitely STATED that the Bible Students should worship Jesus therefore the Bible Students did not worship Jesus.
When I told her that the article also did not EXPLICITELY state that the Bibles Students did not worship Jesus, then the article is AT BEST inconclusive. Boy did she really give me a hard time about that. She STUBBORNLY held to her argument that the Bible Students did not teach the worship of Jesus.
Even when I provided her with this way out, "Honey, if I were in your shoes, I would probably agree that the Bible Students could've believed that worship of Jesus was acceptable. Remember, they were using the King James Bible at the time which obviously teaches this. The change in their belief in this occurred in the 1950's which coincided with the publishing of the New World Translations. I would've said that Jehovah was provided His ever increasing light."
She, of course, thought that I was just being funny.
* face palm *
