'for stumbling purposes' - LOL! Welcome to the forum!
Please reccommend older Watchtower publciations for stumbling purposes
by TheStumbler 49 Replies latest jw friends
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slimboyfat
An old blue book in Rutherford's "rainbow" of books called Creation says that Jehovah lives in the Pleiades constellation. I casually showed that to an elder once when we were all sitting having lunch in the kingdom hall library. His eyes nearly popped out of his head when he read it, until he composed himself, and glared at me suspiciously.
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Nathan Natas
You may want to take a look at
http://stores.lulu.com/oldlightreprints
But first, a bit of advice: sometimes JWs will claim that these "replica reprints" *might* have been forged to change what they say. (They haven't.)
Instead of arguing about what *might* have been done, ask him to compare the reprints to the original documents to show YOU where the deception lies.
If he is a real "seeker of truth," he will eagerly spend a wad of cash for a crumbling Watchtower original, only to find that the reprint is letter-for-letter true to the original.
"Millions Now Living Will Never Die" is a great place to start.
Almost all the titles are available in hard-copy and e-book format.
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TheStumbler
I don't to be one of those annoying new memebers who start loads of threads so I'll keep this in here. Not much point with thise post other than sharing my thoughts.
My father and I have not discussed religion for a couple of years because I've been living overseas. In the past, to be honest, whenever we have spoken about relgiion he always got the better of me. However, in the last couple of years I've been doing a bit of reading (crises of Conscience, Alan Feubacher, and some of these forums). Any way, my dad and I were talking about religion a few days ago and I couldnt believe I had a better grasp of some topics than he did.
I tried to pin him down on who exactly would die in Armagheddon, he admitted that most 'worldly' people would die and that if Armagheddon were to happen tomorrow then I would die too. He seemed to think this was okay and a non-issue though because Armagheddon won't happen tomorrow and so I could potentially become a witness, and be 'saved', by the time that it does.
It was hard to keep him on point, but I asked him again that, if, hypothetically, Armagheddon did happen tomorrow, would I die. He agreed that I would so I asked him if he thought that I deserved to die and if he was comfortable with this. He was unwilling to actually say that I deserved to die. I told him it was implied by his beliefs regardless. He seemed genuinely upset by this suggestion but was also unwilling to admit that I did NOT deserve to die either - presumably because that would mean Jehovah is wrong (was I observing cognitive dissonance)
He kept trying to evade the question and moving between two contradictory answers:
A) Jehovah can look into your heart and see if you are a good person and worthy of saving
B) You have to have a knowledge of scripture and Jehovah and practice a Christian lifestyle to stand a chance at ArmagheddonWhenever I suggested that A implies that you don't need to be a Jehovah's Witness to be saved he would move to B. And whenever I pointed out how grossly unfair B is he'd go back to A. I pointed both A and B could not possibly both be true. He couldnt answer me.
We soemhow got onto the length of days in Genesis. He was not aware that up until the 1980's the Watchtower taught the creative days were 7,000 years long and that this teaching has never officially been retracted and the current teaching that each creative day was 'thousands of years' is still consistent with the 7,000 years teaching. I asked him if he could find out if the 7,000 years is still official docrtine and he said he'd look into it.
He explained that 'day' in Genesis 1 is cross referenced with Genesis 8:22 which uses 'day' figuratively'. I told him that 'yohm' (day) is used 1,200 times in the OT to refer to a 24-hour day so if 'day' is used both figuratively and literally on what basis does Watchtower cross reference a figurative meaning rather than the primary literal meaning - he said it was a good question and he'd look into it for me (maybe the cogs are starting to turn)
He brought up 'Isiah' 'Sphere of Earth' quote. I informed him the correct interpretation was 'circle' a flat object and that the Babylonians used the same word to describe the Earth and they definitely believe the Earth was flat - He seemed surprised by this, like it was news to him and he said that it was 'interesting'.
He kept on talking about 'theoies' so I asked him if he knew what a theory was - he of course said 'conjecture'. I explained to him that a theory, in the scientific context is an explanation that has been tested and is supported by all the evidence and must have predictive power. I used gravity as an example of something that is both a fact and a theory and how it would be foolish to dismiss the fact of gravity because science cannot fully explain the 'theory'. Again, this was all new to him and he seemed to grasp it so I didnt push the point - I know the org teaches a different meaning of 'theory'
He then brought up christmas and birthdays being based on pagan festivals (time of year I guess). I pointed out that his wedding band also had pagan origins. He ignored this and started going on about how christmas can be traced back to paganism so I repeated 'so can your wedding band'. He dissmissibley asked 'can it?' so I replied 'yes, as surely as Christmas can'. He said that wedding bands are trivial and lost their pagan meaning so I asked 'why have wedding bands lost their pagan meaning but Christmas and Birthdays have not?'. He could not answer so then claimed that the Bible prohibits Birthdays and Christmas. I asked him to provide references so he admitted Birthdays and Christmas are not explicitly prohibted so it was an 'interpretation'. I asked how he reconciled this with his earlier claim that was not intersted in the words of men but only God/the Bible.
He started getting a bit cranky by this point because I think it became apparant to him that I've been doing a bit of reading and could refute pretty much all his stock answers. He suggest that I attent a Bible study if I am genuinely interested and have the 'right condition of heart' - he couldn't explain what the 'right heart condition' actually meant.
It seems the Watchtower love vague nebulous words and phrases because you can never pin them down on what they actually mean. If you accept what they say then you are humble and have the right condition of heart but if you do not then you obviously have the wrong condition of heart - it seems if someone doesn't swallow their bullshit then the fault is with that person's tastes, not the fact that the bullshit stinks.
Any way, I'm just rambling now but I get frustrated how JW's are blind to these massive holes....
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Invetigator74
Instead of arguing about what *might* have been done, ask him to compare the reprints to the original documents to show YOU where the deception lies
Hopefully his Kingdom Hall library carries the older publications to compare with the copies you'll have for him. Unfortunely quite a few KHs are riding their bookshelves of many of these older publications.
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TheStumbler
Sorry for the long post.
Thanks for all the suggestions. All really useful.
Sharpie, I definitely agree. I'm surprised at just how superficial and specious some of their arguements are, but you can't anywhere by pointing this out to them. I think you just have to plant the seeds of doubt.
"If I follow everything that the Bible students wrote under Russel, I'd be a apostate today" is a good question but assumes the Witness you are talking to is familiar with Russell's teachings.
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Meeting Junkie No More
You know, you have to give your Dad credit for listening to you as long as he did. Remember, the most mental exercise most Witnesses get is going for reinforcement of their already accepted dogma 5 x per week - ok 5 meetings in 2 sessions, but still it's all reinforcement. Difficult for them to go into defense mode, especially when it's family. I say he's already allowing you to make points; go slow, you're already having an effect! Good work, keep it up!
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undercover
I can admire you wanting to try to "stumble" him by helping him reason and use logic. I think we have all tried similar approaches with JW family. You're already experiencing the exasperation of dealing with the cult indoctrinated mind. Changing tacts and jumping from subject to subject. And when a nerve is hit, they retreat into a "Where else will we go" mentality.
From experience most of us can tell you that no matter how air-tight your argument, no matter how factual your evidence...if they want to believe, they're going to believe. It's a common maladay with everyday people even, it's just that JWs are more eat up with it due to the manipulation and propaganda of the WTS.
I figured LeavingWT would have suggested it for your own reading but "Combatting Cult Mind Control" and "Releasing the Bonds" by Steve Hassan have helped some who are trying to get people out of the grasp of the WT control. It's not something you'd share with your father, but it is something to study and learn from in dealing with people who are in a cult or don't think for themselves.
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leavingwt
I figured LeavingWT would have suggested it for your own reading but "Combatting Cult Mind Control" and "Releasing the Bonds" by Steve Hassan have helped some who are trying to get people out of the grasp of the WT control.
Great advice. When speaking to someone trapped in a high-control group, your goal is to "empower him to think for himself". Once he can see that he's standing in a pot of boiling water, he'll jump out of it without any invitation. Combatting Cult Mind Control is a must-read, IMHO. It will highlight the Fears & Phobias going through the member's head.
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Smoky
cabasilas info is good stuff
Or, The Divine Plan of the Ages as Seen in the Great Pyramid
http://www.a2z.org/wtarchive/docs/1913_Divine_Plan_Great_Pyramid.pdfPg 62, pretty much saids it all.
smoky