The New Covenant Discussion

by Listener 61 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    While I agree that that Sages had been teaching to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", I don't think it was ever applied BROADLY across the board as Jesus did.

    Certaibly in Hellenistic Greece it was applied to fellow citizens and not slaves or outsiders and while the Torah mentioned that the nemey should be dealt with in a correct manner, I don't think love was ever implied ( just correct dealings).

    The fact that the Jews don't see Jesus as the messiah is irrelevant because it suggest that THEIR view of the messiah was the correct one and that MAy not be the case.

    The OT in of itself shows a "progressive" revelation of the judaic understanding of many things, from God's nature, to God's will; to the nature of the afterlife an so forth.

    It MAY will be very plasuable that Christianity is simply the next "revelation" of God's will.

    Or not, it is up to the indivdual to decide for themselves.

    The point is, just because Judaisim in a current form ( like 1st century Judaisim or one of its versions) says A) and Christianity says C), that doesn't mean Christianity has it wrong.

  • tec
    tec

    On the lesser end misinformation messes with your life, on the more egregious end people lost their lives because Christian Zealots went on a killing spree against our ancestors for being 'Christ Killers'. Remember the lovely battle cry that some sicko Bishop had inserted in the Gospels- 'His blood be upon us'.

    I agree with you about this, certainly. So called Christians abused and sidestepped the words/teachings/acts of Christ for their own ends. But they did not know Christ, or they would not have rushed in to spill anyone's blood.

    Do remember that early Christians were hunted down, imprisoned, tortured and killed as well. Until the Emperor declared Christianity the state religion and politics got intertwined with religion/faith. Which kind of rendered 'give to Caeser what is Caeser's, and to God what is God's' somewhat difficult.

    But there was nothing wrong with the law. Christ knew it, lived it, learned of it with rabbi's (in his Father's house). But he also understood it; understood the mercy and love being at the core, because his heart and spirit were right. He brought that understanding to the people - without selfish ambition or gain. And he had the utmost faith in His Father, even to the point of laying down his own life - for love of his brother's and love of his Father. He knew the will of his Father, whom He spoke with, and so he also had knowledge of spiritual matters that no one else had. Now whether a person hears and/or believes him is a different matter.

    Tammy

  • designs
    designs

    PS-

    Good points. Modern Christianity, except for some sects, is becoming a Kumbaya religion. Its main problem is that is portends by its own Creeds to be something more.

    In that context Judaism's views become relevant in that the Jesus of the Gospels portends to be the Messiah of the Jews. The Jewish Messiah gets the job done in one visit not two and the 'second' visit is now what 2000 years and waiting. This is why the Jewish community of the 1st century began to back away from this Messiah. They knew their own expectations, their Messiah would bring complete peace and reconciliation to humanity. None of this having to die for humanity and promise to Return (someday).

    Is anything the next revelation of God's will.

    Well as a Naturalist and Environmentalist I would say the revelation is already present- Take care of this earth for ourselves and future generations. Learning and practicing how to manage 7 Billion people on this planet is the task at hand.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    In that context Judaism's views become relevant in that the Jesus of the Gospels portends to be the Messiah of the Jews. The Jewish Messiah gets the job done in one visit not two and the 'second' visit is now what 2000 years and waiting. This is why the Jewish community of the 1st century began to back away from this Messiah. They knew their own expectations, their Messiah would bring complete peace and reconciliation to humanity. None of this having to die for humanity and promise to Return (someday).

    It is possible that THEIR notion of what the messiah should do was incorrect, since they tended to view it on a more local and less global view.

    The Jewish messiah would have been a dictator of epic porportions, enforcing His Will on the whole world.

    Of course one can still read the "second coming" as just that too.

    Well as a Naturalist and Environmentalist I would say the revelation is already present- Take care of this earth for ourselves and future generations. Learning and practicing how to manage 7 Billion people on this planet is the task at hand.

    Well said.

    A friend of mine once chalked up christianity into this:

    Love each other, even those that do bad to you since they need love the most, be good to the world and take care of it for all people, cause if you don't, you'll be in a rotten place of your own doing.

    God will indeed have his day and on that day he will ask: What have YOU done with this world that was given to you?

    What will YOU say?

  • designs
    designs

    PS-

    We can see from an anthropological and psychological perspective where all of these ancient cultures were coming from in trying to figure out why they were here and what the future held in store and wanting better things for themsleves and their future generations.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Indeed, and as we are dicovering more ancient ruins we are seeing that religion and civilization have come down through the ages "hand-in-hand" to a point where it is not disconcernable which came first.

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    This should answer your original question, and how it relates to the New Covenant. Tfhe JWs perpetuate false teachings in this regard.

    A) The Covenants: The Jehovah's Witnesses' other Achilles’ Heel and the key to bringing God's alleged 1914 kingdom and the 20th century New Covenant arrangement back to the first century where they belong. [Home]

    Understanding the Davidic covenant, especially as it relates to the priesthood, is key to bringing the 1914 kingdom and the Jehovah's Witnesses' priesthood back to the first century, extending the New Covenant into the everlasting future where it belongs, and including all Christian believers, not just the 144,000, under the New Covenant arrangment with all its attendant benefits, such as eternal life, forgiveness of sins and reconciliation with YHWH God. But to understand the broad scope of the Davidic covenant it is essential to see how it is inseparably intertwined with the Abrahamic covenant and the New Covenant.

    “The term ‘covenant’ in general refers to a solemn agreement between two or more parties” (Oxford Dictionary [U.S.A. Oxford University Press, 1998], 288). “The Christian tradition of dividing the Bible into two “testaments” (“old” and “new”) indicates that Christianity has seen “covenant” as the organizing principle providing meaning and coherence to the whole of Scripture…. To study the biblical notion of “covenant” is thus to study what is arguably the central or core concept of the entire Bible” (Ibid., 292).

    The organizing principles of related covenant relationships which provide the structure and avenue for God’s salvation plan for fallen mankind stretch from Genesis to Revelation in a grand, sweeping, interlocking arch. As early as Genesis 3:15 the idea that redemption would come through the seed, Christ Jesus, was revealed. Later, the covenant promise to Abraham ensured the creation of God’s people, the nation of Israel in the flesh; but the promise did not stop there as it encompassed the succeeding generations of spiritual Israel, Christianity, heirs to the promise (Gal. 3:26-29).

    The covenant of blood circumcision was a sign of, and sealed, the Abrahamic covenant. The covenant of circumcision remained operative until Christ’s death when it (physical circumcision) and the Mosaic Law covenant (Law covenant) became obsolete and were replaced by the New Covenant. The Law covenant was an extension of, and addition to, the Abrahamic covenant, and was instituted in succeeding manifestations between YHWH and natural born Israel. Statutes, decrees and ordinances - a religious code - the Law covenant provided an orderly arrangement for God’s people, the Jews. It made sin and transgression manifest (Gal. 3:19) and was supposed to lead the Jews to Christ the messiah (Gal. 3:24). It also served to guarantee the physical line of descent from Abraham through the tribe of Judah and from King David to the promised seed, Jesus.

    God’s promise to David - the Davidic covenant - established a line of descent for David’s throne, or rulership, which culminated with Christ’s ascension to this heavenly throne in the first century to rule as king of the universe and beyond, and high priest. Jesus became both king and priest forever on the order of king/priest Melchizedek of Abraham’s day (Heb. chapters 5-8). The Davidic covenant lasts into perpetuity, forever, and contrary to what the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach, includes a priesthood comprised of Christ and his house of all Christian believers who are a kingdom of priests, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s people (1 Pet. 2:9).

    The taking out of God’s people in furtherance of the Davidic covenant is accomplished through the New Covenant created and memorialized by Christ’s blood sacrifice. However, God’s people under the New Covenant are not limited to the 144,000 but embrace all Christian believers. Through grace, faith, and the forgiveness of their sins by virtue of Christ’s sacrifice, fallen man is reconciled to the creator. Christ’s death and resurrection provide the gift of eternal life for God’s people. Christ is forever mediator between God and His people and without his continued intercession between humans and God, access to God in heaven is not possible and continued redemption unattainable, as explained in further detail below.

    As repeatedly stated throughout the Bible, and contrary to the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ teachings, the New Covenant, by necessity and design, is everlasting, not temporary or of a fixed determinate length.

    B) The Davidic Covenant [Home]

    For reasons that will be explored in detail later, the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach, incorrectly, that God’s covenant with David was for a throne only; that it included no priesthood.

    Covenant with King David. The covenant with David was made at some time during David’s reign in Jerusalem (1070 - 1038 B.C.E.), the parties being Jehovah and David as representative of his family. (2Sa 7:11-16) The terms of this covenant were that a son from David’s line would possess the throne forever, and that this son would build a house for Jehovah’s name. God’s purpose in this covenant was to provide a kingly dynasty for the Jews; to give Jesus, as David’s heir, the legal right to the throne of David, “Jehovah’s throne” (1 Ch 29:23; Lu 1:32); and to provide identification for Jesus as the Messiah. (Eze 21:25-27; Mt 1:6-16; Lu 3:23- 31) This covenant included no priesthood; the Levitical priesthood served in conjunction with kings of David’s line; priesthood and kingship were strictly separate under the Law. Since Jehovah acknowledges this kingship and works through it forever, the covenant has everlasting duration. - Isa 9:7; 2 Pet 1:11. (Insight, 524)

    This convoluted paragraph begs for clarity and is self-contradicting because the kingship and priesthood cannot be strictly separate under the Law yet serve in conjunction with each other. Furthermore, the fact that priesthood and kingship might have been separate under the Law misses the point entirely because the focus should be on the kingship of Christ under the Davidic and New covenants, not the expired Mosaic Law, and in that role Christ’s kingship most definitely includes a priesthood And, kings of David's time routinely performed priestly functions. The Davidic covenant provides:

    12 When your days come to the full, and you must lie down with your forefathers, then I shall certainly raise up your seed after you, which will come out of your inward parts; and I shall indeed firmly establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one that will build a house for my name, and I shall certainly establish the throne of his kingdom firmly to time indefinite. 14 I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son. When he does wrong, I will also reprove him with the rod of men and with the strokes of the sons of Adam. 15 As for my loving-kindness, it will not depart from him the way I removed it from Saul, whom I removed on account of you. 16 And your house and your kingdom will certainly be steadfast to time indefinite before you; your very throne will become one firmly established to time indefinite. (2 Sam. 7:12-16 NWT)

    The Davidic covenant was not limited to only a throne but included a kingdom as well. (Davidic covenant was for an everlasting kingdom (2 Chron. 13:5; also Insight, 164). The throne of David (throne of Israel) cannot be severed from the kingdom. In the Old Testament, kingdom, or mamlakah, is defined in part as “expressions of the royal “rule” of all things associated with the king: 8(c)(1) the throne…” (Vine’s Dictionary, 161). The covenant was also for a house, which is God’s spiritual house, over which Christ presides, the church or congregation of Christian believers.

    “…Christ was faithful as a son placed over his house. We are his house if [only] we hold fast to our confidence and pride in our hope.” (Heb. 3:6)

    The promised house is a holy priesthood. Peter testified “… let yourselves be built up into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ” (1 Pet. 2:5). “But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood” (1 Pet. 2:9). Paul explained that Christ is great priest over this house.

    19 Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 which he inaugurated for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us approach with true hearts in the full assurance of faith, having had our hearts sprinkled from a wicked conscience and our bodies bathed with clean water. (Heb. 10:19- 22 NWT)

    Without Jesus as high priest there is no priesthood; his role in this capacity sustains the church or congregation: “Through him the whole structure is held together and grows into a temple sacred in the Lord” (Eph. 2:21, 22). Jeremiah drew an unmistakable connection between the everlasting Davidic covenant and the New Covenant with God’s people, his house. He emphasized the inclusion of a continuous line of priests that reached far into the future beyond the Levitical priesthood.

    Never shall David lack a successor on the throne of the house of Israel nor shall priests ever be lacking. (Jer. 33:17, 18)

    This does not refer to the Levitical priesthood under the Mosaic Law which ended in the first century but refers to the Christian priesthood because these priests will never be lacking, and in accordance with Jeremiah 33:22 will be countless.

    Like the host of heaven which cannot be numbered, and the sands of the sea which cannot be counted, I will multiply the descendants of my servant David and the Levites who minister to me. (Jer. 33:22)

    Finally, the prophet Isaiah made the most succinct connection between the New Covenant and the benefits assured to David under the Davidic covenant. They are inseparable.

    Come to me heedfully,
    listen that you may have life,
    I will renew with you the everlasting covenant,
    the benefits assured to David.” (Isa. 55:3 NAB;
    see also Isa. 55:1; John 7:37)

    a) The invention of new covenants and abrogation of existing covenants: In order to place the inception of God's kingdom in 1914, the Jehovah's Witnesses have wrongfully stripped the Davidic covenant of a priesthood, severed the Davidic covenant from the New Covenant, and limit the New Covenant to a temporary 2,000-year period[Home]

    In light of this strong scriptural evidence several questions emerge:

    (1) If the Davidic covenant obviously included a priesthood why do the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that it does not and that the covenant only included David’s throne?

    (2) Why do the Jehovah’s Witnesses sever the Davidic covenant from the New Covenant even though the New Covenant effectuates, and is the fulfillment of, the Davidic covenant?

    (3) Why do the Jehovah’s Witnesses terminate the New Covenant after two thousand years but concede the Davidic covenant lasts forever even though the former reflects the fulfillment of, and amplifies, the latter Davidic covenant and both covenants are repeatedly said to be everlasting, and they are the same where they overlap?

    i) A first century priesthood undermines the Jehovah's Witnesses' "1914 kingdom" theory and the "first resurrection of the 144,000" theory[Home]

    ANSWER: First, the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that the Davidic covenant includes no priesthood because the only priesthood the Jehovah’s Witnesses recognize is the 144,000 with Christ as their high priest, for a while. As explained earlier, they believe they do not become a kingdom of priests until they are resurrected beginning in 1918, the so-called first resurrection (Climax Book, 103, 277).

    Only then do they become a kingdom of heavenly priests who rule over man on earth during the thousand year reign (Insight, 524, 525). They are resurrected in 1918 because this resurrection must follow on the heels of the 1914 return, or Second Coming, of Christ (parousia) in conformity with Matthew 24:29-31. These two events, Christ’s return and the gathering of the elect, are chronologically inseparable.

    The problem is, if the 144,000 become a kingdom of priests when Christ ascended David’s throne it drags the 1914 kingdom of God back to the first century as well, where events related thereto rightfully belong. Consequently, the Second Coming could not have happened in 1914, and since it did not happen in the first century, the return of Christ still awaits us and 1914 is false prophecy, among other things.

    In other words, the Davidic covenant that includes the Christian kingdom priesthood - his house of Christian believers established in the first century - fatally undermines their 1914 kingdom theory and the first resurrection of the 144,000 theory.

    ii) An everlasting New Covenant would destroy the Jehovah's Witnesses' salvation plan during the millennial reign.[Home]

    ANSWER: Second, the Jehovah’s Witnesses sever the forever-lasting Davidic covenant from their temporary New Covenant because a long-lasting New Covenant would destroy their salvation plan during and after the thousand year reign, as explained in detail below. Whereas the Davidic/New Covenant is everlasting, their version of the New Covenant lasts a mere two thousand years.

    The purpose of the new covenant requires that it continue in operation until all of the “Israel of God’ are resurrected to immortality in the heavens. (Insight, 524)

    The benefits of the Davidic covenant include a priesthood and Christ’s rule as king in God’s kingdom over the universe and all believers, but the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ New Covenant is only for a kingdom of 144,000 with Christ as associate king over them. These two concepts are diametrically opposed to each other when they should harmonize.

    iii) An everlasting New Covenant would prevent the Jehovah's Witnesses from education man to a state of perfection and repeatedly judging him[Home]

    ANSWER: Third, the Jehovah’s Witnesses concede that the Davidic covenant lasts forever (Insight, 524), but since the New Covenant is inseperable from the Davidic covenant it must also be everlasting. This is problematic for the Jehovah’s Witnesses because if the New Covenant is everlasting, which it is, the Jehovah’s Witnesses would not be able to educate resurrected man to perfection; this is their plan for salvation.

    Consequently, the “Law Scrolls” of God - the Jehovah's Witnesses' new rules and regulations revealed during the millennium - would not be new expressions of God’s law but would be, in the Christian view rather, a record of man’s deeds done in this life, and not those committed during the thousand years as they wrongly teach. The Bible teaches us that these so-called millennial Law scrolls are actually a record of man’s deeds in this life which form the basis for their names being included in the book of life (Rev. 20:12). But without the millennial Law scrolls, the Jehovah's Witnesses cannot subject man to judgment again and again, which is precisely the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ intent.

    Man will not, and cannot, be “educated” to perfection (justified or declared righteous, without sin: Vine’s) through adherence to any set of externally imposed laws. He is only justified, or “perfected” through the grace of God and Christ, Christ’s death sacrifice, and faith. This is the essence of God’s power of transformation, the explicit alternative to the Mosaic Law, and the means by which God takes out a people as his own and forgives their sins. The New Covenant is the quintessential arrangment between the Almighty and all Christian believers, not merely a select 144,000.

    33 “For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.”

    34 “And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, ‘KNOW Jehovah!’ for they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “For I shall forgive their error, and their sin I shall remember no more.” (Jer. 31:33, 34)

    It is the Great Crowd of Jehovah’s Witnesses’ stated purpose to teach the resurrected during the thousand years how to know God and Jesus based on written decrees, but this is at direct odds with the New Covenant where the Almighty is changing hearts from the inside out through the power of the Holy Spirit, not through the imposition of more externally imposed Mosaic-like laws and decrees. Through the sacrificed blood of his son, Jesus, God forgives sin and redeems man by virtue of grace through their faith in Christ and his sacrifice. He does not teach man to be sinless or perfect, nor does he forgive sins in the Christian era based on their successfully passing tests in another life. Forgiveness through Christ’s sacrifice under the everlasting New Covenant supplants the Jehovah's Witnesses' “educational” route and renders it useless with respect to their stated purpose.

    iv) The Jehovah's Witnesses are unable to eliminate Jesus after the 1,000 year reign if the New Covenant, for which he is the mediator forever, is everlasting[Home]

    Furthermore, an everlasting New Covenant means that Jesus the sacrificed Lamb will forever mediate the New Covenant, whereas the Jehovah’s Witnesses dispense with Christ the angel as legal intermediary, his services no longer needed after the final human has been put on judgment again (Insight, 170). With an everlasting New Covenant, they are unable to eliminate Jesus as the legal intermediary and helper, explained in further detail below. With all of this inconvenient excess baggage it is understandable why the Jehovah’s Witnesses need to remove the New Covenant so quickly. However, in doing so they have created a host of additional problems for their theology.

    b) The Jehovah's Witnesses' approach deprives the high priest Jesus of his priesthood, a problem they attempt to solve by inventing a separate "Melchizedek covenant." However, the so-called Melchizedek covenant is the New Covenant and therefore must last forever and include a priesthood of all Christian believers[Home]

    If the Davidic covenant lacks a priesthood and the New Covenant terminates near the beginning of the thousand year reign there is no vehicle, you might say, or covenant, to provide a priesthood for the high priest Jesus. Recognizing this shortcoming the Jehovah’s Witnesses have apparently crafted another covenant called the “Covenant to be a Priest like Melchizedek” (the Melchizedek covenant) which is no covenant at all. They explain their novel approach this way:

    Covenant to Be a Priest Like Melchizedek. This covenant is expressed at Psalm 110:4, and the writer of the Bible book of Hebrews applies it to Christ at Hebrews 7:1-3, 15-17. It is a covenant made by Jehovah with Jesus Christ alone. Jesus apparently referred to it when making a covenant for a kingdom with his followers. (Lu 22:29) By Jehovah’s oath Jesus Christ, the heavenly Son of God, would be a priest according to the manner of Melchizedek. Melchizedek was king and priest of God on earth. Jesus Christ would hold both offices of King and High Priest, not on earth, but in heaven. He was installed permanently into office after his ascension to heaven. (Heb 6:20; 7;26, 28; 8:1) The covenant is forever in operation, since Jesus will act under Jehovah’s direction as King and High Priest forever. - Heb 7:3. (Insight p. 524)

    Because this so-called Melchizedek covenant provides that Jesus would serve as king and high priest it avoids the Davidic covenant's problem of not having a priesthood , and of a temporary New Covenant, and it gives them the millennial "education-to-perfection program," the Law scrolls and judgment days, because the alleged Melchizedek covenant comes without restraints.

    The problem, of course, is that the Melchizedek covenant is not a separate covenant at all. The verses they quote in support merely extol Christ’s role under the Davidic and New covenants. The inspired writer of Hebrews made this perfectly clear in chapters 5-8. God declared Jesus to be a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek pursuant to his oath to David; he was not entering into yet another separate covenant relationship for yet another kingdom with Jesus as king and high priest. The context of the entire discourse in Hebrews chapters 5-8 revolves around Christ as king and priest forever on the order of Melchizedek under the New Covenant. Although too long to quote them all here, these four chapters should be read. As high priest he became the surety, or guarantee, or pledge of the New Covenant in furtherance of the oath to David. The New Covenant takes out a people, or Christian house, for the heir to David’s throne, Christ, who rules as king and high priest.

    17 for in witness it is said: “You are a priest forever according to the manner of Mel·chiz´e·dek.

    18 Certainly, then, there occurs a setting aside of the preceding commandment on account of its weakness and ineffectiveness. 19 For the Law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in besides of a better hope did, through which we are drawing near to God. 20 Also, to the extent that it was not without a sworn oath, 21 (for there are indeed men that have become priests without a sworn oath, but there is one with an oath sworn by the One who said respecting him: “Jehovah has sworn (and he will feel no regret), ‘You are a priest forever,’”) 22 to that extent also Jesus has become the one given in pledge of a better covenant. 23 Furthermore, many had to become priests [in succession] because of being prevented by death from continuing as such, 24 but he because of continuing alive forever has his priesthood without any successors. (Heb 7:17-24 NWT)

    1 Now as to the things being discussed this is the main point: We have such a high priest as this, and he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a public servant of the holy place and of the true tent, which Jehovah put up, and not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; wherefore it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If, now, he were upon earth, he would not be a priest, there being [men] who offer the gifts according to the Law, 5 but which [men] are rendering sacred service in a typical representation and a shadow of the heavenly things; just as Moses, when about to make the tent in completion, was given the divine command: For says he: “See that you make all things after [their] pattern that was shown to you in the mountain.” 6 But now [Jesus] has obtained a more excellent public service, so that he is also the mediator of a correspondingly better covenant, which has been legally established upon better promises.

    7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, no place would have been sought for a second; 8 for he does find fault with the people when he says: “‘Look! There are days coming,’ says Jehovah, ‘and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant; 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their forefathers in [the] day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, because they did not continue in my covenant, so that I stopped caring for them,’ says Jehovah.”

    10 “‘For this is the covenant that I shall covenant with the house of Israel after those days,’ says Jehovah. ‘I will put my laws in their mind, and in their hearts I shall write them. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.

    11 “‘And they will by no means teach each one his fellow citizen and each one his brother, saying: “Know Jehovah!” For they will all know me, from [the] least one to [the] greatest one of them. 12 For I shall be merciful to their unrighteous deeds, and I shall by no means call their sins to mind anymore.’”

    13 In his saying “a new [covenant]” he has made the former one obsolete. Now that which is made obsolete and growing old is near to vanishing away. (Hebrews 8:1-3 NWT)

    Psalm 110 places Jesus as king and priest squarely on David’s throne under the Davidic covenant, not a separate throne under the so-called Melchizedek covenant which would be redundant. The only throne which Jesus ascends as a Melchizedek-type king and priest is the Davidic throne pursuant to the Davidic covenant and under the New Covenant, which therefore must be everlasting and not temporary because Jesus rules forever.

    We know this refers to Christ's priestly function under the New Covenant because Jesus was not priest while on earth as he was not of the tribe of Levi and became priest only at his death and ascension (Heb. 8:4). Like other prophetic statements, Isaiah 110:4 was projecting forward in time to that day. The only covenant inaugurated and invoked by his blood sacrifice is the New Covenant of his blood (Matt. 26:28). Jesus Christ, as high priest on the order of Melchizedek, could only ascribe to that role by and through the New Covenant. The so-called Melchizedek covenant is not a covenant separate from the New Covenant.

    The Lord says to you, my lord:
    Take your throne at my right hand,
    While I make our enemies our footstool.”
    The scepter of your sovereign might
    The Lord will extend from Zion.
    The Lord says: Rule over our enemies!
    Yours is princely power from the day of your birth.
    In holy splendor before the daystar,
    Like the dew I begot you.
    The Lord has sworn and will not waver:
    Like Melchizedek you are a priest forever.” (Psa. 110:1-4)

    29 “Men, brothers, it is allowable to speak with freeness of speech to YOU concerning the family head David, that he both deceased and was buried and his tomb is among us to this day. 30 Therefore, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath that he would seat one from the fruitage of his loins upon his throne, 31 he saw beforehand and spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in Ha´des nor did his flesh see corruption. (Acts 2:29-31)

    That the Davidic covenant included the priesthood of Jesus Christ as high priest under and in furtherance of the New Covenant is shown at Hebrews 10:11-17. Paul had just concluded a lengthy discourse explaining that Jesus presented himself as the ultimate sacrifice in his role as high priest. And as high priest (and king) Jesus took his seat on David’s throne and through his death made the consecrated perfect through forgiveness of sins under the New Covenant.

    11 Also, every priest takes his station from day to day to render public service and to offer the same sacrifices often, as these are at no time able to take sins away completely. 12 But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet. 14 For it is by one [sacrificial] offering that he has made those who are being sanctified perfect perpetually. 15 Moreover, the holy spirit also bears witness to us, for after it has said: 16 “‘This is the covenant that I shall covenant toward them after those days,’ says Jehovah. ‘I will put my laws in their hearts, and in their minds I shall write them,’” 17 [it says afterwards:] “And I shall by no means call their sins and their lawless deeds to mind anymore.” 18 Now where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer an offering for sin. (Heb. 10:11-18 NWT)

    c) All of the Jehovah's Witnesses' benefits under their temporary New Covenant terminate when their new covenant expires, shortly[Home]

    Because the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ New Covenant ends very soon they also lack a covenant vehicle to carry the 144,000 beyond their resurrection and through the thousand year reign. They cannot simply apply the benefits of the terminated New Covenant to the next life without its continued existence any more than one can obtain forgiveness of sin today under the obsolete and ineffectual Mosaic Law covenant, but that is precisely what they are attempting to do:

    …others [earthly subjects of God’s kingdom] are to benefit from his ransom sacrifice and gain everlasting life through the removal of their sins and accompanying imperfection. Rev 14:4; 1 John 2:1,2. (Insight, 736)

    d) The Jehovah's Witnesses' "covenant with Christ's followers" is a fabrication; it is not a valid separate covenant for yet another kingdom, but an administrative appointment with respect to the kingdom[Home]

    Without a replacement covenant they lack a basis, or authority, for ruling during the thousand years. You could say they lack enabling legislation. Their answer to this dilemma is Jesus’ so-called ‘covenant with Christ’s followers,’ but this so-called “covenant with Christ’s followers” is not a covenant for yet another kingdom, but rather an appointment of authority to run, or continue to administer, the fledgling church, Christ’s kingdom of priests pursuant to the Davidic and New Covenant.

    Jesus’ Covenant With His Followers. On the night of Nisan 14, 33 C.E., after celebrating the Lord’s Evening Meal Jesus made this covenant with his faithful apostles. To the 11 faithful apostles he promised that they would sit on thrones (Lu 22:28-30; compare 2 Ti 2:12.) Later, he showed that this promise extended to all spirit-begotten ‘conquerors.’ (Re 3:21; see also Re 1:4-6; 5:9, 10; 20:6.) On the day of Pentecost he inaugurated this covenant toward them by the anointing with holy spirit those disciples present in the upper room in Jerusalem. (Ac 2:1-4, 33) Those who would stick with him through trials dying his kind of death (Php 3:10; Col 1:24), would reign with him, sharing his Kingdom rule. The covenant remains operative between Jesus Christ and these associate kings forever. - Re 22:5 (Insight, 524, 525)

    As a covenant it is ineffectual and intrinsically unable to bring about the forgiveness of sin and human perfection, redeem man or grant everlasting life. Neither was it intended as a means of rule over earthly subjects. The kingdom which the Jehovah’s Witnesses claim is the object of their covenant is set out at Luke 22:28-30 and Matthew 19:27-30.

    28 “However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant (“confer” NAB; “assign” ESV; “appoint” Green’s Literal) with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel. (Luke 22:28-30 NWT).

    27 Then Peter said to him in reply: “Look! We have left all things and followed you; what actually will there be for us?” 28 Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to YOU, In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, YOU who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone that has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive many times more (a “hundredfold” Green’s Literal) and will inherit everlasting life. (Matt. 19:27-30 NWT).

    The Jehovah’s Witnesses populate this covenant with the “bride” taken out during under the temporary New Covenant.

    The purpose of the covenant is to take out a people for Jehovah’s name as a part of Abraham’s “seed.” (Ac 15:14) They become the “bride” of Christ, and are the body of persons whom Christ takes into a covenant for the Kingdom to rule with Him. (Joh 3:29; 2 Cor 11:2; Re 21:9; Luke 22:29; Re 1:4-6; 5:9, 10; 20:6) The purpose of the new covenant requires that it continue in operation until all of the “Israel of God” are resurrected to immortality in the heavens. (Insight, 524)

    First, Jesus’ use of the Greek word diathemai means foremost to put apart, dispose (by assignment, compact or bequest [Vine‘s]). And even though it can mean ‘covenant,’ in this particular context, with respect to this specific verse, Luke 22:29 means to arrange, dispose or appoint.

    Diathemi, a verb … (2)… means to arrange, dispose of, one’s own affairs (2a) of something that belongs to one: The Lord used it of His disciples with reference to the kingdom which is to be theirs hereafter, and of Himself in the same respect, as that which has been “appointed” for him by His Father: “And I appoint (diathemi) unto you a kingdom, as My Father hath appointed (diathemi) unto me” Lk 22:29;” (Vine’s, 67)

    Other commentators are in accord, that the kingdom was to be his disciples’ thereafter. He was not creating another kingdom for the 144,000 to rule over earthly subjects in the next life. “As (the kingdom’s) administrators they are to share in it; hence they are to join with Jesus in the eschatological feast when he has come into His kingdom…” (G.W.H. Lampe, Peake’s Commentary, 840). Jesus was departing and left the apostles in charge.

    The granting of the right to sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel was specific to the apostles, not a general grant of power for the 144,000 to rule over earthly subjects under Revelation 20:4-6 during the thousand year reign.

    Furthermore, the specific nature of the grant to the apostles to "judge" is clarified at Matthew 19:27-30. Everyone (not just the 144,000) who give up many things will receive a hundred times more and will inherit eternal life; but not everyone sits on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. That extra privilege of judging is reserved to the apostles, not the 144,000.

    Secondly, a seemingly odd inauguration of this “covenant with Christ’s followers” has the Jehovah’s Witnesses borrowing and sharing the same Holy Spirit poured out at Pentecost that inaugurated the New Covenant, over the same group of people, (Insight, 524) even though the New Covenant is, according to them, severely limited in duration and scope, and this covenant was never ratified with Christ’s blood.

    That aside, the scriptural support for extending the specific grant of authority to the apostles to include the future 144,000 is weak, if that. They teach that, “Those who would stick with him through trials dying his kind of death (Phil 3;10; Col 1:24) would reign with him sharing his kingdom rule” (Insight, 525). But that is also in error because a) many of the 144,000 have not died horrible, painful, tortuous deaths like Christ’s, b) Phil 3:10 refers to Paul’s “sharing of his sufferings in order to “attain the ressurection of the dead.” It says nothing about suffering in order to reign or judge over man during the thousand years, and Christ’s appointment was not because of their suffering, but because they stuck with him through his trials, and c) in Col 1:24 all Paul is rejoicing in is his own suffering, with no mention of how that places him on a throne during the millennial reign.

    Third, those who reign at Revelation 20:4-6, the souls of those beheaded, are not the same as those on thrones entrusted with judgment, as the Jehovah‘s Witnesses propose; so they can’t be “judging” the resurrected under these provisions as the claim.

    Then I saw thrones; those who sat on them were entrusted with judgment. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the world of God and who had not worshipped the beast or its image nor had accepted its mark on their foreheads or lands. They came to life and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over these; they will be priests of God and Christ, and they will reign with him [for] the thousand years. (Rev. 20:4-6 NAB) (also: I saw, ESV; And I saw the souls, NASB; I also saw the souls, CEV)

    A literal translation does not read “Yes, I saw the soul …” at Revelation 20:4 as the Jehovah’s Witnesses have interpreted it in order to associate these two groups of people as being the same, and place the 144,000 on judgment seats.

    Furthermore, the 144,000 would have to share the reign with the Great Crowd who, like those who reign, have “not worshiped the beast or its image nor accepted its mark on their foreheads or hands.” This places the Great Crowd up in heaven, not on earth.

    Fourth, since the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe the twelve tribes of Israel at Revelation 7:1-8 are the anointed 144,000 and they are to judge the twelve tribes of Israel pursuant to Luke 22:28-30 and Matthew 19:28, they end up judging themselves.

    Fifth, Christ’s so-called “covenant with his followers,” as a redemptive covenant, is void and ineffective because it was never ratified with blood: “For where a covenant is, the death of him covenanting must be offered” (Heb. 9:16 Green’s Literal; see also Heb. 9:15-21). “… Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness,” (Heb 9:22 NAB), and if there is no forgiveness of sin there can be no reconciliation, no “perfection.

    Only Christ’s blood can form the basis of reconciliation (Eph. 2:13-16), redemption (Rom. 3:24-25), justification and salvation (Rom. 5:9), sanctification (Heb. 10:29), and life itself (John 6:53-56). Without Christ’s shed blood ratifying the so-called “covenant with Christ’s followers,” none of this is attainable. But it is under the New Covenant.

    C) Summary of the Covenants and the Jehovah's Witnesses' Insurmountable Obstacles[Home]

    The Jehovah’s Witnesses’ numerous shortcomings with respect to these covenants critically undermines their theology. The so-called "covenant of Christ with his 144,000 followers" is ineffective and void, and cannot serve as a legitimate basis for their rule over man during the thousand year reign. Nor can “perfection,” forgiveness of sin and redemption for mankind come through this administrative appointment over Christ’s kingdom of priests, the church. The so-called "covenant to be a king like Melchizedek" is not a separate covenant at all, but part-and-parcel of the Davidic covenant and New Covenant - it exemplifies Christ’s role as king and priest when he ascended to David’s throne in the first century, not 1914, where he rules over all things, including his kingdom and house of priests, the priesthood - all believing Christians under the everlasting New Covenant. These two so-called covenants were invented in order to place Jesus and the 144,000 in the thousand year reign without resorting to the Davidic and New Covenants and to justify or allow the Jehovah's Witnesses' works-based salvation plan.

    Consequently, because the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ version of the Davidic covenant is for a throne only and includes no priesthood, and their Melchizedek covenant, which was supposed to make up for this shortcoming, is no separate covenant at all, they lack a priesthood for Christ to carry God's salvation plan forward under their scenario.

    The only lawful means of accomplishing the Bible's stated purpose is via the Davidic covenant which, correctly interpreted, recognizes Christ’s priesthood, and via the New Covenant which the Jehovah’s Witnesses unfortunately cut short after two thousand years. As such it is impossible for Christ to rule as priest under their temporary version of the New Covenant through the millennial reign or to apply the benefits of forgiveness of sin, reconciliation and redemption (perfection) and life everlasting to any person during the thousand year reign or afterward.

    The 144,000 have a similar problem. Because Christ’s so-called "covenant with his followers" was only an administrative delegation of authority for the existing church and not a separate blood covenant, and because the apostles and not all 144,000 are to sit on thrones judging “Israel,” or anyone else for that matter, and because no blood ratified this covenant, the 144,000 lack authority - they lack a legislative vehicle - for their priesthood to rule during the thousand year reign, or the means of “applying” the benefits of Christ’s death to mankind. And, they can’t use their New Covenant because it does not run through the thousand year reign.

    The Jehovah’s Witnesses’ problems are compounded by the fact that the New Covenant in reality is not temporary and of limited duration, as they claim, but everlasting, eternal. And since it runs through the thousand year reign and covers all Christian believers, not only the 144,000, they are prohibited logistically and legally, by the clear language of the New Covenant from “perfecting,” man, education him to this so-called state of perfection, placing him on judgment again, and testing him and putting him to death again based on deeds or acts they commit during the thousand year reign. Theirs is a salvation plan apart from God and his Christ, unattainable, scripturally flawed and lacking in divine approval. These latter issues will be explored in detail in the next section.

    http://144000.110mb.com/144000/i-3.html#A

  • james_woods
    james_woods
    These latter issues will be explored in detail in the next section.

    Jonathan, I am sure there is some good information there, but that post is just too long to read as it is -

  • Listener
    Listener

    Thanks Jonathan for sharing that information. Unfortunately I find it very confusing so I'll have to examine it a bit closer.

    The January 2012 Watchtower discusses the royal priesthood and how they claim it actively operates on earth today. I don't know if there is any 'new light' in it but it does cover the aspect of their role on earth as a royal priesthood. I am hoping that someone does a commentary on this article.

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    The January 2012 Watchtower discusses the royal priesthood and how they claim it actively operates on earth today.

    I would like to read this. Do you have a link? Surely they must mean it is part of the 144,000 anointed, right? According to the Insight books they are simply of the anointed. Is this a departure? Of course they are wrong, because all true Christian believers are part of that royal priesthood spoken of by Peter.

    So they talk about their being the new covenant which provides their heavently hope then in the next paragraph they talk about there being another covenant - that is the Kingdom covenant

    As I mentioned above, they have fabricated multiple covenants to get around the New Covenant which proves problematic. Read the piece on the covenants where I go into significant detail and expose the weaknesses in their arguments, in my opinion. It's eally fascinating and I'm surprized more ex-jws have not delved deeper into these eyebrow-raising theories of theirs. Here is the link on the covenants to begin with.

    http://144000.110mb.com/144000/i-3.html#A

    Print it out while it is still available. The Society doesn't want anyone thinking too deeply about this. Like the 607, 144,000 and trinity, it helps bring the whole house of cards down.

    The New Covenant, and presumably that kingdom, expires when “… all of the ‘Israel of God’ (the 144,000) are resurrected to immortality in the heavens” (Insight, 524; parenthesis added). This means that the eternal New Covenant, in furtherance of and pursuant to which Jesus gave his life, lasts approximately two thousand years because the resurrection of the 144,000 began in 1918 and will conclude shortly (Climax Book, 103, 277). The following is their description of the New Covenant kingdom.

    “The Kingdom of the Son of His Love.” Ten days after Jesus’ ascension to heaven, on Pentecost of 33 C.E., his disciples had evidence that he had been “exalted to the right hand of God” when Jesus poured out holy spirit upon them. (Ac 1:8,9; 2:1-4, 29-33) The “new covenant” thus became operative toward them, and they became the nucleus of a new “holy nation,” spiritual Israel. - Heb 12:22-24; 1 Pet 2:9, 10; Ga 6:16.

    Christ was now sitting at his Father’s right hand and was the Head over this congregation. (Eph 5:23; Heb 1:3; Php 2:9-11) The Scriptures show that from Pentecost 33 C.E. onward, a spiritual kingdom was set up over his disciples. When writing to the first-century Christians at Colossae, the apostle Paul referred to Jesus Christ as already having a kingdom: “[God] delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love.” Col 1:13; compare Ac 17:6, 7.

    Christ’s kingdom from Pentecost of 33 C.E. onward has been a spiritual one ruling over spiritual Israel, Christians who have been begotten by God’s spirit to become the spiritual children of God. (Joh 3:3, 5, 6) When such spirit-begotten Christians receive their heavenly reward, they will no longer be earthly subjects of the spiritual kingdom of Christ, but they will be kings with Christ in heaven. - Re 5:9, 10. (Insight, 169).

    These spirit-begotten, anointed brothers of Christ become under-priests of the High Priest, “a royal priesthood.” (1 Pe 2:9; Re 5:9, 10; 20:6) These do a priestly work, a “public service” (Php 2:17), and are called “ministers of a new covenant.” (2 Cor 3:6) These called ones must follow Christ’s steps closely, faithfully, until laying down their lives in death; Jehovah will then make them a kingdom of priests, making them sharers in divine nature and will reward them with immortality and incorruption as joint heirs in the heavens with Christ. (1 Pe 2:21; Ro 6:3, 4; 1 Cor 15:53; 1 Pet 1:4; 2 Pet 1:4) The purpose of the covenant is to take out a people for Jehovah’s name as a part of Abraham’s “seed.” (Ac 15:14) They become the “bride” of Christ, and are the body of persons whom Christ takes into a covenant for the Kingdom to rule with Him. (Joh 3:29; 2 Cor 11:2; Re 21:9; Lu 22:29; Re 1:4-6; 5:9, 10; 20:6) The purpose of the new covenant requires that it continue in operation until all of the “Israel of God” are resurrected to immortality in the heavens. (Insight, 524).

    http://144000.110mb.com/144000/i-2.html

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