The New Covenant Discussion

by Listener 61 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Listener

Thanks for your bible quotes Ding.
The quote from Ephesians is great and I've heard of the great crowd being compared to the Gentiles but if I am reading a 2002 Watchtower article correctly then they don't think they are Gentiles any longer.
W 2002 5/1
In times past, it has been said that the great crowd is in a spiritual equivalent, or an antitype, of the Court of the Gentiles that existed in Jesus’ day. However, further research has revealed at least five reasons why that is not so. First, not all features of Herod’s temple have an antitype in Jehovah’s great spiritual temple. For example, Herod’s temple had a Court of the Women and a Court of Israel. Both men and women could enter the Court of the Women, but only men were allowed into the Court of Israel. In the earthly courtyards of Jehovah’s great spiritual temple, men and women are not separated in their worship. (Galatians 3:28, 29) Hence, there is no equivalent of the Court of the Women and the Court of Israel in the spiritual temple.........
Members of the great crowd exercise faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice. They are spiritually clean, having “washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” Hence, they are declared righteous with a view to becoming friends of God and of surviving the great tribulation. (James 2:23, 25) In many ways, they are like proselytes in Israel who submitted to the Law covenant and worshiped along with the Israelites.
Of course, those proselytes did not serve in the inner courtyard, where the priests performed their duties. And members of the great crowd are not in the inner courtyard of Jehovah’s great spiritual temple, which courtyard represents the condition of perfect, righteous human sonship of the members of Jehovah’s “holy priesthood” while they are on earth. (1 Peter 2:5) But as the heavenly elder said to John, the great crowd really is in the temple, not outside the temple area in a kind of spiritual Court of the Gentiles. What a privilege that is! And how it highlights the need for each one to maintain spiritual and moral purity at all times!
So the great crowd are no longer Gentiles but are now proselytes. At least they are now serving inside the temple rather than outside it.
How much more confusing can it get?
Ding

The Watchtower insists that the promises to Israel apply to the WTBTS as "spiritual Israel" and the Jehovah has rejected fleshly Israel because they have rejected Jesus as Messiah.
Not so!
Read Romans 11.
For everyone's convenience, I quote the key verses below:
Romans 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah-- how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"? 4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace...
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?...

... 25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you."
designs

Ding and you other 'Christians'- Does anything strike you as odd about Romans 11, Ephesians 2:11+. Any red flags at all.
Ding

Designs,
Why don't you just tell us the red flags you see there?
sd-7

Witnesses will generally deny that Jesus is not their Mediator. My mom, who's been a JW for...almost 25 years, doesn't believe that, nor does my JW wife. This is because they haven't bothered the study the issues and grasp their implications.
The Society teaches that the 'great crowd' is not in the new covenant but nonetheless its members are 'beneficiaries' of it. They once gave an illustration about an attorney who wins a large settlement for someone, Jesus being the attorney or 'mediator'. You, however, are not Jesus' client. While they didn't actually say it, any cursory reading of a Watchtower would show you that...basically, the only way you can benefit from the new covenant is to support (read: obey) the anointed, who will, in the new system, participate in applying the value of the ransom to mankind's sins. (Huh? I thought that was Jesus' job, and that he already went to heaven and did that for us after he was resurrected!)
I think also, Jesus is given two separate roles, according to the Society--(1) Mediator and (2) High Priest. Mediator is his relationship with the anointed, and High Priest is his relationship with the great crowd, while the anointed serve as 'underpriests'. A thorough reading of Hebrews would show that there's no distinction made between being mediator and high priest, but...okay...whatever.
There is no scripture that says only a select few Christians can partake of the bread and wine at the Lord's evening meal. None. And given the number of Christians who were around back then, logically some of them should have been part of the great crowd, given that somehow at least 10,000 anointed ones are still around today, despite nearly 2,000 years' worth of Christians. They misapply the scripture about 'eating unworthily' of the bread and wine--applying it as a threat to those who are not anointed or who 'think' they are worthy of partaking. (The context of...what's that is that some Christians back then were eating their own food before partaking, and treating the meal as if it wasn't sacred, not that some were 'not anointed' and partaking anyway.)
By the way, Revelation 7 speaks of the 'great crowd' as having washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, and also as serving in God's temple. How would it be possible for either of those things to happen if they're not allowed to even drink the wine that symbolizes Jesus' blood? You don't wash your clothes by watching someone else wash theirs. (At least it's never worked for me.) So that's utter nonsense.
The irony is that they recently said in a study article that the great crowd symbolically represents the twelve tribes of Israel. Yet, spiritual Israel is made up of people from all nations. Both groups, by the Watchtower's own admission, are symbolically Israelites. So why not let them all partake? The argument is illogical. 144,000 from the tribes of Israel = people from all nations. But the great crowd from all nations = the twelve tribes of Israel. This requires completely ignoring the literal wording of Revelation 7, which shows:
Definite number (144,000) & Israel
AND
Indefinite number (great crowd) & people of ALL nations.
If 144,000 is literal, and the indefinite number of the great crowd is literal, then it's pretty reasonable to conclude that neither group is being referred to symbolically. Because then you'd have a sequence that goes: literal number, symbolic group, literal number, literal group. The great crowd, while occasionally symbolized in WT literature (and usually not symbolized as Israelites, mind you), generally is not seen as a symbolic group.
If that sounds complicated, it is. Jumping through flaming hoops rather than using a bit of logic is ultimately the core problem with the Society's idea of the new covenant. There were not two covenants for Christians, otherwise, the term 'new covenant' would have to be plural, wouldn't it? It implies that there was an old covenant. The covenant Jesus made with the faithful apostles for a kingdom, even if it was a separate covenant from the new covenant, would have been strictly with the apostles, as Jesus does not say anything about extending it to anyone outside of that room. So...it just doesn't work, all the way around.
-sd-7
james_woods

I think that it might be worth mentioning that to Ed Dunlap (friend of Ray Franz at Bethel and mentioned in CoC) - this issue was really the core problem he had with witness theology.
The denial of the mediatorship of Christ and the new covenant to all christians was positively immoral and anti-christian to him. He thought all christians should celebrate the memorial - and that they all were in the new covenant. This was even before he had fully worked out his thinking on who went to heaven and who went to earth. I believe that Ed eventually settled on a heavenly hope for all christians, but long before that he had promoted the idea that all JWs should be partaking of the emblems and that the 144,000 was merely a Revelation symbolic writing. Toward the end of his life, Ed had also come to accept the deity of Christ, but not in a trinitarian way.
Of course, he denounced the false prophecy and chronology, blood transfusion, and other things - but this doctrine (and the dual class of christians associated with it) were to him the greatest sin the watchtower thinkers had done, and the central one cause for their other twisted doctrines. It was to Ed a perversion of the new testament message simply to preserve the power structure of the elite Watchtower "annointed".
designs

Ask a Jew what they think of when the term 'New Covenant' is mentioned.
PSacramento

Ask a Jew what they think of when the term 'New Covenant' is mentioned.
Ask a Jew before the destruction of the first temple what it meant and ask one after that, ask a jew before 70 AD and ask one after 70 AD, see a pattern?
Of course most Christians would give the same answer a jew would, " And I care because?"
Fact is, what Jews thought and think today is of very little concern for a Christian, much like what a Christian thinks is of very little concern to a Jew.
And rightly so.
Listener

The org believes that the great crowd are not part of God's Kingdom but are only observers, being interested in the Kingdom, there only to assist in a time of need. By their own words the great crowd are not recieving forgiveness of sins through Christ's blood, not sanctified, not Jesus' spiritual brothers of Christ (but somehow the FDS acknowledge them as brothers but that would just be earthly brothers in a spiritual sense, not literal) or God's children. Oh how the Kingdom of God has been shut off to them.
SD-7 said -The irony is that they recently said in a study article that the great crowd symbolically represents the twelve tribes of Israel. Yet, spiritual Israel is made up of people from all nations. Both groups, by the Watchtower's own admission, are symbolically Israelites
They have also said that the 144,000 make up the 12 tribes of Israel, there is this from Insight Vol 1 pg 1125
Tribes
So on the one hand they say 12 Tribes of Spiritual Israel is made up of the 144,000 but the 12 tribes of Israel is all mankind. SD-7 (or anyone) are you saying that this contradiction is excused away by saying one is symbolic and although the other is symbolic it is literal at the same time?
No wonder they belittle people by saying they are spiritually weak (and don't have it in their hearts) when they can't comprehend their deep meaning of truths, they just embarass people into accepting what they say.
It is interesting the Ed Dunlap had a serious problem with this, did Ray Franz also have a problem with this too? Looking into this has helped me to see how it is at the root of the control the FDS has been able to have over it's followers and why they have no choice but to declare themselves as the only true religion and the only way in which the great crowd can gain salvation. They are certainly unique in that they have intricately devised this great crowd which is not part of God's Kingdom but can gain benefit from it if they follow them.
The great crowd can show their dedication to God (and the FDS) by being baptized and the org says this is how they 'wash their robes in the blood of the lamb of God' and as SD-7 pointed out you can't do this merely by being an observer of his covenant/kingdom arrangement. Surely one has to come into the covenant arrangement and be part of it for their 'robes to be washed' and made pure and white. It is not because of our own dedication alone that has made it possible but because Jesus has provided us with the means for us to be able to be cleansed. Or in other words, we can wash our outer garmet (by walking in the footsteps of God in our dedication to him) but it is only through the covenant arrangement (the blood of Christ) that they are made white, if we are not part of it then that cannot happen, but the org says it can because the great crowd are beneficiaries. As clear as mud.
Listener

The quote from insight vol 2 pg 1125 didn't copy correctly in my post above, it is -
Tribes
“JudgingtheTwelveTribesofIsrael.” Jesus told the apostles that in “the re-creation” they would “sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Mt 19:28; see CREATION [Re-Creation].) And he expressed a similar thought when he made a covenant with his faithful apostles for a Kingdom. (Lu 22:28-30) It is not reasonable that Jesus meant that they would judge the 12 tribes of spiritual Israel later mentioned in Revelation, for the apostles were to be part of that group. (Eph 2:19-22; Re 3:21) Those “called to be holy ones” are said to judge, not themselves, but “the world.” (1Co 1:1, 2; 6:2) Those reigning with Christ form a kingdom of priests. (1Pe 2:9; Re 5:10) Consequently, “the twelve tribes of Israel” mentioned at Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30 evidently represent “the world” of mankind who are outside that royal priestly class and whom those sitting on heavenly thrones will judge.—Re 20:4.
They have said 'it is not reasonable that Jesus meant that they would judge the 12 tribes of spiritual Israel'. Those that Jesus was talking to knew what he meant. They knew he wasn't talking about the earthly men of Israel therefore he must have been talking about the spiritual kingdom of Israel. But because the symbolic book of Revelation uses the word spiritual they conclude that it is a different Israel that he is talking about. On this basis then everything in Revelation does not relate to anything in the other scriptures and can be made to fit any definition they want.
A good point has been raised to ask a Jew to defind their understanding of 'new covenant' and I am really curious to know how a JW would define it. As previously mentioned I don't think the literature actually spells it out clearly enough and I think there would be many and varied answers. Just to confuse them more the org mentions the new covenant and an additional covenant (which becomes very conveniant for them when you think you are discussing one thing with them and they are actually discussing something else).
Question: "What is the New Covenant?"
Answer: The new covenant is spoken about first in the book of Jeremiah. The old covenant that God had established with His people required obedience to the Old Testament Mosaic law. Because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), the law required that people perform rituals and sacrifices in order to please God and remain in His grace. The prophet Jeremiah predicted that there would be a time when God would make a new covenant with the nation of Israel.
"'The day will come,' says the Lord, 'when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah. . . . But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day,' says the Lord. 'I will put my law in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people'" (Jeremiah 31:31, 33). Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law of Moses (Matthew 5:17) and create a new covenant between God and His people. The old covenant was written in stone, but the new covenant is written on our hearts, made possible only by faith in Christ, who shed His own blood to atone for the sins of the world. Luke 22:20 says, "After supper, [Jesus] took another cup of wine and said, 'This wine is the token of God's new covenant to save you – an agreement sealed with the blood I will pour out for you.'"
Now that we are under the new covenant, we are not under the penalty of the law. We are now given the opportunity to receive salvation as a free gift (Ephesians 2:8-9). Through the life-giving Holy Spirit who lives in all believers (Romans 8:9-11), we can now share in the inheritance of Christ and enjoy a permanent, unbroken relationship with God. Hebrews 9:15 declares, “For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that He has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.”
Question: "What is the New Covenant?"
Answer: The new covenant is spoken about first in the book of Jeremiah. The old covenant that God had established with His people required obedience to the Old Testament Mosaic law. Because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), the law required that people perform rituals and sacrifices in order to please God and remain in His grace. The prophet Jeremiah predicted that there would be a time when God would make a new covenant with the nation of Israel.
"'The day will come,' says the Lord, 'when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah. . . . But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day,' says the Lord. 'I will put my law in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people'" (Jeremiah 31:31, 33). Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law of Moses (Matthew 5:17) and create a new covenant between God and His people. The old covenant was written in stone, but the new covenant is written on our hearts, made possible only by faith in Christ, who shed His own blood to atone for the sins of the world. Luke 22:20 says, "After supper, [Jesus] took another cup of wine and said, 'This wine is the token of God's new covenant to save you – an agreement sealed with the blood I will pour out for you.'"
Now that we are under the new covenant, we are not under the penalty of the law. We are now given the opportunity to receive salvation as a free gift (Ephesians 2:8-9). Through the life-giving Holy Spirit who lives in all believers (Romans 8:9-11), we can now share in the inheritance of Christ and enjoy a permanent, unbroken relationship with God. Hebrews 9:15 declares, “For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that He has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.”
This is a definition on the New Covenant that I found that makes it plain and clear
Question: "What is the New Covenant?"
Answer: The new covenant is spoken about first in the book of Jeremiah. The old covenant that God had established with His people required obedience to the Old Testament Mosaic law. Because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), the law required that people perform rituals and sacrifices in order to please God and remain in His grace. The prophet Jeremiah predicted that there would be a time when God would make a new covenant with the nation of Israel.
"'The day will come,' says the Lord, 'when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah. . . . But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day,' says the Lord. 'I will put my law in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people'" (Jeremiah 31:31, 33). Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law of Moses (Matthew 5:17) and create a new covenant between God and His people. The old covenant was written in stone, but the new covenant is written on our hearts, made possible only by faith in Christ, who shed His own blood to atone for the sins of the world. Luke 22:20 says, "After supper, [Jesus] took another cup of wine and said, 'This wine is the token of God's new covenant to save you – an agreement sealed with the blood I will pour out for you.'"
Now that we are under the new covenant, we are not under the penalty of the law. We are now given the opportunity to receive salvation as a free gift (Ephesians 2:8-9). Through the life-giving Holy Spirit who lives in all believers (Romans 8:9-11), we can now share in the inheritance of Christ and enjoy a permanent, unbroken relationship with God. Hebrews 9:15 declares, “For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that He has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.”
Recommended Resource: The Moody Handbook of Theology by Paul Enns.

The New Covenant Discussion

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