Ren/Debator the constant references to this fine work is probably bringing more publicity then Ray could have possibly dreamed of, carry on plugging away.
CoC is not the holy Grail according to Ren/Debator
by jookbeard 21 Replies latest jw friends
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mrsjones5
If the fine brother on the stage of the circruit covention back in 1982 (or was it 1983?) had never mentioned that Ray Franz had turned apostate and written a book I would have never known about. Wt hasn't figured out that negative attention is still attention...Reniaa hasn't figured this out too.
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just n from bethel
I've never read CoC. I didn't need to read it to learn JWs are not the "truth". I learned that on my own through personal study. Only the Bible and Watchtower publications. However, whenever I read Reniaa's posts, the powerful hypocrisy of her flawed "debate" arguments leaves nothing but total assurance that JWs are more deluded than I ever imagined.
Every time she posts, 5 doubting lurkers decide their doubting days are over. They immediatey make plans to move forward beyond the WT. Reniaa/Debator thinks she is special because she believes she has a pass to associate with disfellowshipped apostates on this site and get into debates - all against specific instruction from the governing body to NOT do exactly what she is doing. The more she posts, the less sense she makes, all while disobeying the organization she is trying to defend. The governing body and congregation elders are disgusted with her disobedience and how bad she makes them look. Her multiple posts often contradict themselves. So in the end she helps many doubting lurkers come to the realization that if they stay a JW, they could end up as crazy and nutty as her.
Thanks to her, hundreds of lurkers have moved forward far beyond the WT. So Reniaa/Debator - please don't stop posting. You have helped more people see the craziness in WT than anybody else that ever posted here. You deserve a prize.
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jookbeard
so true JNFB
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Gary1914
"We lost some mystery and gained some reality but nothing surprising unless people were putting false expectation of perfection onto our shepherds."
I never expected perfection. I realize that the Governing Body is made up of imperfect men. However, I did expect humbleness and a measure of humility from those who profess to be acting in accord with Holy Spirit. I also expected some transparency. It is simply not enough to make rules and change doctrine by declaring that you are only doing the will of God. We are entitled to know what exactly took place to get you to this point and why we should believe your interpretation is now correct. One reason that Crisis of Conscience is a highly regarded book is because it threw off the Waatchtower's veil of secrecy and for the first time let us in on what happens at the top. The Holy Grail? Yes, to some people that might be true. So what? After decades of secrets and half thruths it was marvelous to be able to see inside the inner workings of the Watchtower organization and to realize that the wizard had no real power. That the edicts and rules of the Watchtower were just the whims of selfish, imperfect men and that they were in no way acting on Holy Spirit. God was and is far from them.
So like Jim Jones, David Koresh and all the other delusional men who claim to speak for God, the Governing Body is just another imposter. Just imperfect men who run a money making organization. So why obey them? In recent times the Watchtower has talked about apostates and how they speak against the organization with lies and half truths. Isn't it curious that they never give specific examples. Why not? If apostates are so wrong and they are so right, why not eagerly point out the discrepancies? I believe it is because they know that apostates have exposed them and they are afraid.
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RosePetal
That is so true Justin, I hadn't read CoC or any other book, over the years in the organisation my hubby and I were having doubts and many concerns over policies, procedures, and their teachings, their reasonings and constant changes that did not make sense. The governing body tapering down all new light and direction, coming from them and leaving out even their own brothers in Christ , were ringing giant bells with us.
We were working this out ourselves with personal study of the Bible, when we came on to the forum and read the apologists reasonings and the flawed debates as you say it just confirmed that we were right to have doubts and made us research further and deeper. We have only recently read CoC but we did not need the book to come to the conclusions that we have.
In fact apologists end up waking up themselves.
RosePetal
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isaacaustin
Rosepetal, I do find it so funny how apologists such as Reniaa (aka Debator) inadvertantly have value- in waking up those who are beginning to doubt.
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isaacaustin
Just n from bethel:
Every time she posts, 5 doubting lurkers decide their doubting days are over. They immediatey make plans to move forward beyond the WT. Reniaa/Debator thinks she is special because she believes she has a pass to associate with disfellowshipped apostates on this site and get into debates - all against specific instruction from the governing body to NOT do exactly what she is doing.
My reply: I doubt Reniaa is really a JW anyway...as the JW lingo is "I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses" not as Reniaa says "I am a Jehovahs Witness." If she were though and were to let her elders know she posts here she would no longer be one. Her typical defense to this is to say how hateful we all are- as if that has anything to do with her grossly and brazenly disregarding WT law. LOLYou are right, the org is very clear when it says not to speak with, associate with or saunter onto websites that are apostate to the WT. It is laughable to watch Reniaa on here defend the JWs (if you call her sorry charades a defense) and call herself one of them and at the same time hypocritically doing something MAJOR that JWs are not allowed to do.
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jookbeard
Gary1914 excellent point , they have never ever given 1 specific example of the so-called lies and half truths that us so-called apostates have promoted, membership of The UN/holding investment stock in firms producing military hardware/The Malawi scandal/Their unique child abuse scandal/members of their own GB homosexuality/and countless false prophecy's are pretty hard to defend though!
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Mad Sweeney
She/he/it may serve a useful purpose but I still find her/him/it damned annoying.
just sayin