Cross or Stake, which is biblically true??

by butalbee 60 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Chalam

  I dunno if this point has been made but it is worth repeating IMHO.

  I asked the last two JWs this question when they sat in my house as we discussed matter.

  "What is the koine (biblical) Greek word for cross?"

  Both had blank looks and didn't know the answer, even though they were happy to explain at length why "torture stake" is the "most accurate" translation.

  The answer is of course stauros There is no separate word for post, pole, stake or cross. They are all the same in the Greek.

  If there was then JWs might have a point. As the word can mean any of these things the "most accurate translation" claim is totally false.

  We must move on to historical or archeological evidence.

  The evidence for the former probably outweighs the latter. JWs are in the minority and even contradict their own earlier teachings. There is very little of the latter.

  There is some evidence in the bible for a cross or "T" shape and against that of a pole or stake but the question is not exactly how Jesus died but if He is Lord and Saviour? The "torture stake" thing is another WT red herring.

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  purplesofa

  Here is a recent thread with lots of info

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/173883/1/Jesus-not-crucified-on-torture-stake-Impossible
• 

  Chalam

  I was thinking of that one. After thirteen pages one might conclude that stauros should be correctly translated "torture thread"

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  jeanniebeanz

  I miss Gumby...

  J
• 

  jeckle

  researching this really gave me the huevos to leave the borg. IT WAS A CROSS AND IT DOES MATTER COMPLETELY. They don't get it ugh!
• 

  witnessdater

  Hey!! Check this out everyone? Does archeological evidence mean anything?

  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12888421
• 

  wobble

  That particular piece of "evidence" has sadly turned out to be a fake, witnessdater.

  If Jesus existed and is not simply myth, and if the Romans put him to death, chances are it was some form of cross.

  I think the JW's miss the point of Christians use of the symbol, it is done in a reverential way by sincere Christians, to remind them of what Jesus did for them, so nothing wrong with proclaiming your faith in that by wearing a cross.
• 

  james_woods

  The witnesses would be far better off to just admit that THEY DO NOT KNOW (any more than anybody else) whether it was a cross or a stake.

  The best guess from history and archeology is a cross shaped like a T.

  But, characteristically, the witnees mindset is to INSIST that they KNOW it was a stake - without a shred of evidence. And, to carry it further, they practically make the claim that the cross is PAGAN and therefore should not ever be used - a nutcase idea they got from Alexander Hislop and his book "The Two Bablyons".

  Well, here is a wakeup call to any JW with a brain - the stake is just as pagan as the cross. Of course they were both pagan - they were used by the pagan Romans and others at various times in history.

  The christian symbolism of the cross (and JW symbolism of the stake) came later.
• 

  Earnest

  In Gunnar Samuelsson's recent thesis 'Crucifixion in Antiquity' he shows that prior to the death of Jesus there was no terminology describing crucifixion, only suspension, and so the terms used to describe the crucifixion only describe suspension.

  So, stauros is a kind of suspension device used for the suspension of corpses, torture, or in a few cases execution. A crux is some kind of torture or execution device, and so is patibulum. If this is true then to translate these words as 'torture stake' rather than 'cross' is more accurate as 'cross' denotes a shape whereas 'torture stake' denotes a function.

  The problem arises when you depict this in pictures as whereas you do know the function, you do not know the shape, and as long as you bear this in mind then all is well. Any picture of the crucifixion is based on the imagination of the artist, from the physiology of Jesus and those who were suspended with him to the shape and size of the instruments of suspension.

  There are some things that we can glean from the gospel accounts. First, that it was an executionary suspension. Second, that after being scourged Jesus (and/or Simon) carried a stauros to the execution place. Third, that Jesus was undressed and attached to a stauros, perhaps by being nailed. Fourth, that a sign probably indicated the nature of the crime. Everything else is imagination.
• 

  PSacramento

  I think the JW's miss the point of Christians use of the symbol, it is done in a reverential way by sincere Christians, to remind them of what Jesus did for them, so nothing wrong with proclaiming your faith in that by wearing a cross.

  Paul boasted in the cross, it seems that for him it was something worth boasting about.