Cross or Stake, which is biblically true??

by butalbee 60 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  hippikon

  Must have been a Ham Steak!
• 

  ARoarer

  plmkrzy, like I said, the teachings of JW's seem more Satanic, than Christian, and if I am not mistaken, weren't the original founders of this religion originally involved with these kind of beliefs from their former religous beliefs with the Masons? Also, who would better want Jesus's birth to be unimportant, or the Cross to be distorted into a Phallic image of a stake? And also, murder, and animal sacrifices are Satanic, not Christian or even Godly. The idea of the stake, rather than the cross was a major teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses when one studied the Bible with them, and to say it really doesn't matter whether it was a cross or a stake, sounds like JW's are again changing their "light" again. Truth doesn't change, or is it based on men's lies and misconceptions. Truth is truth. Jesus birth was very important. Angels rejoiced, and it was celebrated by all those bearing gifts to him. Birthdays were celebrated even by Job and his family. Ones birth is the history beginning of the one born. Jesus did not tell us to celebrate his death. He said to remember what his death would mean for mankind. The spilling of his life blood in behalf of us. His birth death and resurrection are all important and should be recognized by all Christians. Worshippers of Satan place more emphasis on distortions and perversions of this. Since Watchtower claims men are "imperfect" and these imperfect men were used to write the Bible, and today, "imperfect men" are interperating the Bible today and filtering their everchanging intereratations to the congregations, than Watchtower has to fall into the same catagory it applies to "Christendom". Which would mean all Christian worshippers of all religions would fall under the catagories of the congregations mentioned in Revelation. And if all worshippers are imperfect, then the early worshippers may have written thier interperatations of the Bible in an imperfect way and added thier own superstitions and beliefs to the Bible, including the sacrificing of animals, children, women, and virtually anyone they chose. Thier early pagan satan worshipping practices were incorporated in the Bible along with Christian worship, and maybe even the interpretation of Christ'd death was done in the same manner. And maybe Satan is able to mislead the entire inhabited earth by Sacred Books like the Koran, Talmud, Bible etc. Maybe man dominates man to his injury, and maybe the works in the earth now being discovered and taught via the Discovery Channel and the Learning Channel regarding the orgins of earth and mankind are in total opposition to the JW view of the creation account in the Bible. Apparently now Science has proven that earth and the human species has been in existance for many many ages according to DNA discoveries and Astronomy. I think the important thing man must learn and live by are the teachings of human kindness and compassion toward all. Respect for creation. The rules, the sacrifices, judgmentalism, intolerance of others is Satanic not of God. When one can free themselves of religious jibberish, and organized intolerance of others, one can be following the principal that Christ taught. In that way man is in harmony with God and the universe. I really don't care what Jehovah's Witnesses interperate as the "truth" any more than I would care about what Bin Laden believes is the truth. They are both based on what seems to be Satanic in nature. The destruction of humans. Religion is like an addictive drug, and their are many religious addicts in this world annhilating one another. I want no part of it anymore. Life, family, creation is simple yet basic and all important. Jehovah's Witnesses have distorted that. Sounds Satanic to me. Just my opinion.
• 

  ChuckD

  Even though it makes for good joke fodder, as in;

  "If Momma Cass had only shared her sandwich with Karen Carpenter, they would both be alive today.."

  It turns out that no ham sandwich was involved in her death.

  Details at:

  http://www.snopes2.com/music/artists/mamacass.htm
• 

  sadiejive

  Isn't there a scripture??...Gal 6:14 NWT that states:, "Never should I boast, EXCEPT in the torture stake of our Lord Jesus Christ..."

  Perhaps I am reading this incorrectly but doesn't this tell us that we should boast in the instrument of Christ's death?

  Any thoughts??

  sadie
• 

  outnfree

  Ref: Galatians 6:14 This was one of my favorite Eastertime hymns when I was still safely a Lutheran in the church youth choir:

  "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross"
  by Isaac Watts, 1674-1748
  1. When I survey the wondrous cross
  On which the Prince of glory died,
  My richest gain I count but loss
  And pour contempt on all my pride.

  2. Forbid it, Lord, that I should boast
  Save in the death of Christ, my God;
  All the vain things that harm me most,
  I sacrifice them to His blood.

  3. See, from His head, His hands, His feet,
  Sorrow and love flow mingled down.
  Did e'er such love and sorrow meet
  Or thorns compose so rich a crown?

  4. Were the whole realm of nature mine
  That were a tribute far too small;
  Love so amazing, so divine,
  Demands my soul, my life, my all.

  The Lutheran Hymnal
  Hymn #175
  Text: Gal. 6:14
  Author: Isaac Watts, 1707, ab. and alt.

  Thanks for the memories.
  Thanks for the awesome info above, too, Mike, JanH, and gumby!

  outnfree

  It's what you learn after you know it all that counts -- John Wooden
• 

  indireneed

  My brother did a lot of research on this for me, and I trust his conclusion since he is a distinguished researcher and scholar of Roman and Greek history.

  While ther is no direct proof for the use of the cross (and I'm not going to argue whether or not the cross was used), the WT's methodology on defining the Greek is wrong.

  They state that there is no indication that the word was used to mean more than a stake before the New Testament. However, this is completely false. I do not have the exact names now, but there are four to five (at least) references to a stauros being made of two sticks perpendicular to one another before the time of Christ (several centuries) thus legitimating the use of stauros for either a stake or a cross.

  Thus, to conclude using the WT's inferences is speculation, not fact as they would wish you to think. I don't care about doctrine, I simply dislike bad scholarship.
• 

  Adonai438

  Yes, I believe celabrating Christmas- while it was not specificly ordered in the Bible, is Biblical. Like mentioned before-- God placed enough importance on the birth of Jesus to put 100's of prophecies predicting his comming in the Bible, the angels came down in legions to sing to God's glory on the night he was born, he announced it to the very least(shepherds) and to the greater(the magi) and they all visited and worshipped Jesus. Magi even brought gifts
  But Sadie is right- the NT has tons of verses that use the cross as a symbol for the gospel so how can it be wrong to use it as a symbol?
  1 Cor.1:18:
  "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God"

  Phillipians 3:18
  "For, as I have often told you before and now say again with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ"

  Each Gospel also has Jesus ORDERING us to 'take up our cross daily'. figurtively of course

  
  Says a little something about the JWs hatred of the cross- no?

  The point is, cross or stake is a translation issue and their translation has no historical baking or proof while the cross does. They just want another reason to be different.
• 

  plmkrzy

  ARoarer

  "And also, murder, and animal sacrifices are Satanic, not Christian or even Godly"

  If you new your Bible at all then you would know that this was GODS LAW! during that period of time. If you really give a s78t at all I suggest you read the old T. You don't even know who Chrit is!.

  Reasoning in regards to Jesus Christ is unfortunate for you it is obvious that you are either very imature or just you don’t care what your Lord and Savior wants, you only care about what you want and that is your right. You have just called the entire line of Abraham right down to Christ himself a bunch of Satanist’s. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. I do believe Jesus is Christ and I would rather cut off my own foot then call his mother a Satan worshiper, which is exactly what you have done. So celebrate his B-Day all you want if you really believe it is that important but at this point I doubt if it will do you much good.
  By the way Christmas is an American tradition, Jesus wasn’t even born in America.
  The tradition of December 25 does have an interesting history though. It marks the day; it is the anniversary, of the baptism of King Clovis conversion to Catholicism, a re-birth of a man who viewed himself as an equal to Christ. This happened 1,500 years ago after the death of the last Roman Emperor

  Hi sadie
  Isn't there a scripture??...Gal 6:14 NWT that states:,"Never should I boast, EXCEPT in the torture stake of our Lord Jesus Christ..."

  Perhaps I am reading this incorrectly but doesn't this tell us that we should boast in the instrument of Christ's death?

  EXCEPT in the torture stake of our Lord Jesus
  This was how people were put to death in those days in the same sense as all people today who get the death penalty are given a leathal injection. The scripture was simply stateing that the only thing we ,as in the human race, have or "SHOULD" be boastful (full of pride) in is the death of our Lord and Savior. We should never forget his sacrifice ever because without it we would not be anything we wouldn't even be here at all. Not even to celebrate a birth day made up by a bunch of Americans.
  So to make a concious choice to celebrate his B- day but FORGET the very thing he asked of us IS ABSOLUTE REJECTION of Christ and it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks or wants to believe in regards to Jesus because he most certainly isn't going to change in order to accomidate any of us. I'm certainly not going to give Christ the finger.

  The way most people read anything is usually the way they want to.
  This is an interesting thread and I am probably getting to upset about it, i'll take a couple of steps back and return later. This is something I get real passionate about because in my heart I have the upmost respect for what the son of God himself has done for me and anyone else who would care to appreciate it and it really makes me angry to hear people disrespect him. My issue though.

  Adonai438
  "Like mentioned before-- God placed enough importance on the birth of Jesus to put 100's of prophecies predicting his comming in the Bible"

  Thats very true but the prophecies were not for the purpose of having a birthday party they were for the purpose of identifying Jesus as the TRUE savior. The prophecies were a map to the true son of God so their could be no doubt that he was in fact authintic. There were many many many frauds proclaiming to be the Christ but jesus could be the only possible Christ child because of the profecies that pointed to his birth.
  And as far as the men bringing gifts. They weren't happy they were seeking to find out if he was in fact the true Christ child for the purpose of KILLING HIM! They didn't want the slaves to have a savior to reek havoc! possibly causing a loss of control in the land. These other kings were not going to sit idlely by and wait for these people to produce a Lord and Savior, not for a minute.

  Adonai438
  The point is, cross or stake is a translation issue and their translation has no historical baking or proof while the cross does.
  They just want another reason to be different.

  You seem to be under the dilussion that this is a JW thing when in FACT it is not. As regards to JWs it is just something they did not adopt. There are more faiths then there are not that don't worship the cross. The worshiping of the cross is a new idea and people have been practicing worship for as long as man has a history. It is a cold hard fact that the cross is a NEW IDEA.
  the idea of NEVER FORGETING WHAT CHRIST WENT THROUGH BECAUSE OF THE WAY HE DIED has been arround since Christ died. But unfortunately it has for the most part been forgotten.
  plm [:)}
• 

  4horsemen

  Simple enough exercise.

  Hold your arms over your head as you'd be if killed on a stick. Now hold them out to the sides as if on a crossbeam. Which is either to breathe?

  Now imagine the same but bearing your full weight. Jesus was on the cross I think 3 hours. 2 at the least. Given the physical/mental/emotional stress prior to the crucification he would not have lasted more than a few minutes with his arms over his head.

  The Romans did not go to all the trouble of crucification for their victims to die in 30 minutes.
• 

  ARoarer

  plmkrzy, Abraham, the israelites, practiced the same blood sacrifices to appease their god, the way many other pagans sacrificed humans and animals to appease thier gods. History proves that. The Ancent Mayans for example believed that they had to do this to satisfy thier god's anger at their sins, that the rains would come and nourish thier crops. Blood sacrifices of humans and animals was a barbarian religious belief to satisfy the gods of the humans worshipping. These ancient practices were obviously incorporated in the Israelites worship and how they "imperfectly" interpreted and wrote the Bible. God's Law according the the Bible was to love oneanother, and not to kill. Jesus himself said that. Humans just never could perfectly obey God's Laws without incorporating thier own views of what they thought he wanted of them. I know the Bible very well, I no longer believe the Watchtower's view of the way it was written. I also don't believe the "glorious ones" spoken of in the NWT should be applied to elders representing the leaders of the WTS. Here they have spoken abusively of angels by equating themselves to them in Jude. The glorious ones were angels not elders as the Watchtower has them believe. Here again is humans incorporating their own interpretations to satisfy what they want to believe. It is the same with the cross. The Watchtower, again, has distorted the Bible teaching of the cross with it's own interpretation. I believe if the civil laws allowed them to get away with it, they would probably put to death all who they believe is apostate, and think they were killing to appease their Watchtower God. Getting back to blood animal sacreifices, there are Satanic groups today that still practice this in belief it appeases their god Satan. Some even abduct little children to do this abhorrent act of worship. There is even a religious group who claim being "Christian" who make blood sacrifices of animals. They are "Santa Ria". I don't know much about them and don't care to know, other than what I have watched on the News. But, again, in a civilized society, cutting up animals, children, or young virgins is disgusting. Just as it was disgusting what was done to Jesus. But he knew the imperfect people with thier imperfect ideas of worship, and illustrated his impending sacrifice in language they understood, when he told them his body and blood were pictured by the bread and wine. He did away with thier imperfect law of disgusting blood sacrifices that were so familiar to them, and practiced by ancient Israel the way other religions did. That is why when they sacrificed their children to the god Marduk in the fire, the Creator said it had never even come up into his heart that they should do such a thing. They would not have done something so horrendous to their children if they weren't already softened in their attitude to living sacrifices. Today, we as a civilized society we morally know better than the ancients. But their are some fanatical religions today who still believe they are pleasing their gods by doing so. I hope you are no still upset, I did not mean to rile you. I am just finally free to say what I believe even if it is not according to those who believe the Watchower view of things.