Loftus: Are We Angry Atheists?

by leavingwt 237 Replies latest jw friends

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    All in all, another example of the feeling of superiority by believers over non believers. And another good example of why some Atheists might be angry.

    I think you may have missed it but the reason I posted that was because another poster said that nothing go comes of religion.

    I posted an article to show that is NOT the case.

    Regardless of my feelings towards religion and organised religion in particular, to deny the good and focus soley on what is wrong and to say that nothing good comes from religion is incorrect and heavily bias.

  • tec
    tec

    Berengaria - I think Psac posted that article in defense of believers being thought of as 'inferior' by non believers. I'm pretty sure it came after a post about crime levels being lower in higher agnostic/atheist countries. He didn't just up and start a topic, saying 'look at me!', lol.

    So its not an example of superiority of believers over non-believers at all. You know, some of us believers are just trying not to get completely squashed down by the nonbelievers saying our motives are selfish.

    (I am not angry in my post, so I hope it doesn't read that way. But there are some presuppositions going on. I know non-believers are reacting to the feelings of superiority by some believers, and some believers are reacting in the same way to the same feelings of superiority shown by non-believers. If we could all remember that, then maybe we could stop reacting in anger so often.)

    Tammy

  • just n from bethel
    just n from bethel

    Whether it's a 'Christian/believer's' defense or chest-thumping point - it really doesn't matter. The statistics, as usually the case, are flawed. Man am I glad I went to college and aced my statisics class. Most of these kinds of polls are so flawed that it's a joke to ever quote them, but hey that's what the Watchtower does and that's what media does - so why not everybody else?

    Even if there is a bit of truth to it. Here's the problem. If you asked me the volunteer survey when I was a Witness, I'd be able to say I did hours upon hours of volunteer work. After I stopped being a Witness, though, my volunteer work stopped. Most here, religious or otherwise, would probably agree that my "volunteer" work was of little if any real charitable benefit.

    While JWs certainly consider their religious activities as actual volunteer work, so do countless of other religions. Playing in a band at a church? Then you're volunteering. Organize a church youth field trip? You're volunteering. Maybe some religious activitites are more legitimately charitable than others, but the point is that religions provide a structure in which members must support the church. And don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking church-sponored soup kitchens or church-sponsored help-the-homeless days - It's cool that they do those things. I'm sure there are even a few that truly do so without an agenda - but most churches are first and foremost about their own survival and growth, no different than the WT.

    The question that the quoted poll fails to incorporate is if the volunteering by such religious persons is church-sponsored. And if it is - is it really a charitiable volunteer work? Most would probably say JWs, Mormons, and children's Jesus Camps are not truly charitiable - but as far as the poll is concerned - those activities are considered volunteering.

    Those that are not religious, often don't have a structure that considers a ministry of non-belief as volunteer work. Think about it. That athiest girl with the message on the bus "God probably doesn't exist" - In all likelihood she doesn't consider that charitable work - and it sure wouldn't be tax-deductible. On the other hand, a religous group putting a message on a bus that says 'God Exists .etc. etc.' would consider that volunteering and - IT IS TAX DEDUCTIBLE.

    So the stats are flawed. To be a bit more accurate, it would need to exclude any kind of volunteering that would be considered 'ministry related'.

    At least that's my opinion. I'm relatively new out of the org though. I don't know - or I should say more accurately, don't care about religion. That doesn't mean I'm a believer or non-believer and I definitely can't be classified as athiest or agnostic. Truly no "ism" would come close to categorizing me. So I wouldn't have fit in the survey one way or the other. But - I do volunteer with my local 'search and rescue' and the humane society. And the funniest thing of all is that I think most non-believers are more likely to follow Jesus' words than the so called believers, that is they're more likely to not announce their charitable giving and truly 'not let their left hand know what the right is doing'. Now who is really Christian?

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    Slighly off-topic, but what about Militant Agnostics ?

    It is common for atheists to be confronted by angry fundamentalists - it's to be expected when each thinks the other is out to lunch. But an agnostic accusing an atheist of being arrogant? Why? Maybe it's unique to Canada where a confrontation style is disliked.

    I was discussing the "Existence of God" with an agnostic friend and he took the position that since it could not be proved 100% that God did not exist that it was unreasonable to deny the existence of god. We simply don't know. The problem with this of course is that we live our lives based on probabilities - we are never 100% certain that lightning will not strike us dead in the next 5 minutes so we live on the assumption that it won't. We are not 100% certain that Santa Claus does not exist so we proceed on the basis he does not. But when applied to God, it seems that this agnostic friend thought I was being arrogant by asserting that there was no God!

    It did not help that he used a weird argument (supposedly an irrefutable one) that said: "You cannot deny the existence of any object if the object isn't there in the first place. You have to have an object to deny. So you must recognize the object....in this case God....before you can deny it. " So because I deny the existence of God, I am already conceding that God exists! Talk about circular logic. I guess I should not have told him that he was being irrational....

    He went on to tear into all atheists who "spend one helluva lot of time and energy ranting and raving about an 'object' that you cannot prove doesn't exist..................anymore than your other firm and fixed belief brethren, the fundamentalists, cannot prove exists." He also thinks atheism is as much a religion as fundamentalism. Sigh.

    I have reported on this because I am a strong believer in trying to understand what makes people think as they do. If one agnostic thinks this way, then there will be more. And there are - you can get a bumper sticker like the one at right if you want.

    Maybe this is why people cling to being agnostic and don't go the next step to becoming atheists - they think atheists are a bunch of illogical people clinging to a faith. The ultimate insult. If you thought that, why would you want to call yourself an atheist?

    But stop and think about it. Agnostics are saying that they don't know and not only that, nobody knows or can know. So they are being just as arrogant as they say that fundamentalists and atheists are.

    A Google search for militant agnostic came up with this definition: One who is sick and tired of how absolutely "certain" everyone else is that they're right and everyone else is wrong. Sounds good except that virtually all atheists are not 100% certain - I just have not seen any evidence yet and I don't see any need to believe in a God.

    http://www.cobourgatheist.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=898:militant-agnostics&catid=161:using-reason&Itemid=108

  • Berengaria
    Berengaria

    This subject never crosses my mind until one of these threads comes up, someone knocks on my door, the guy with the 50 foot cross on the hill I can see from my front porch puts the lights on it, some piece of religiously inspired legislation is put forth, or the rare occasion someone asks me my religion/where do I go to church. Then it's either the reaction of pity, shock, mistrust or fear. Believers often seem to equate Atheism with baby sacrificing devil worship.

  • Giordano
    Giordano

    I'm trying to catch up to this excellent debate, so I might be duplicating some past points.

    Is it just my impression but on this forum are we pretty much evenly split between believers and non believers?

    I also thought the following information was intriguing.

    http://www.alternet.org/rights/139788/40_million_nonbelievers_in_america_the_secret_is_almost_out/

    "A recent Newsweek cover

    — in a bid to (finally) match the celebrated 1966 "Is God Dead?" cover of Time —

    read, in the shape of a cross: "The Decline and Fall of Christian America." Editor Jon Meacham’s story highlights Newsweek’s latest poll results showing that 10% fewer Americans identify as Christian today than twenty years ago. But more importantly, and mentioned only in passing, is the growth among atheists and secularists of all stripes.

  • Giordano
    Giordano

    Had a problem getting the whole quote on:

    " According to the latest American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS) of more than 54,000 adults, between 2001 and 2008 the number willing to identify themselves as atheist and agnostic has gone from under 2 million to 3.6 million. Small numbers compared to the whole, of course, but most notably it’s a rise of 85% of those willing to describe themselves as living without God during the years of our most overtly religious presidency!

    Even more newsworthy, when the widely-scorned labels "atheist" and "agnostic" are replaced with specifics about beliefs ("There is no such thing" as God, "There is no way to know," or "I’m not sure," and added to those who refused to answer) it turns out that over eighteen percent of Americans do not profess belief in a God or a higher power.

    According to ARIS, then, there could be as many as 40 million adult nonbelievers in the United States!"

  • d
    d

    I an not an angry atheist I just see the fallacy in how God is used a means of control and has many religous so called holy wars.

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