Dear Designs...

by AGuest 36 Replies latest jw friends

  • designs
    designs

    SA-

    I'll share a few passages from the Jewish Sages and offer some comments. Central to Judaism is the belief that all humans are equal- 'Every human being is equal in worth to the whole world'. Alturism was not optional- 'all moral principles concern the relation of man to his neighbor' Maimonides. Humans are believed to exist at the center of the universe in the Talmud.

    All humans are perfectible- From Moses to Akiba ben Joseph the ethics of achievement was echoed in the theme 'Love thy neighbor'.

    God was thought to be a continuous worker so when humans work hard they share in the dignity of God- 'God permits his shechinah to rest on Israel only when it works'. maxim in the Talmud.

    Something that is recited at Rosh Hashanah, New Year's, 'Remember us for Life, O King, you who take delight in life!'

    The issue of sin is discussed often in relation to the body and soul, are they opposed to each other or joined in common purpose. Rabbi Saadia Gaon wrote- 'soul and body were both creations of God, and so in their own way 'spiritual'.' Nature, biology and spirituality were an interwoven role. Only the ascetic sects of Judaism thought of the body as evil.

    Rabbi Moses ben Nachman wrote that 'The soul of man is the lamp of God, he could never go out no matter what happened to the body.'. Like God, who was thought to never rest, humans were to continually work at various trades and skills so they could 'climb from strength to strength, from one stage of existence to an ever higher one.', Talmud.

    So in Judaism since we cannot change being human we cannot change being a child of God. We can improve as humans and regress but we are all in the family of God. This is what is meant in the teachings about humans 'Perfectibility', some humans were thought to need extra work on that point in the afterlife.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Interesting, dear designs (peace to you!)... and my spirit bears witness with the truth of much of it. Which is not surprising. I'm thinking, however, that Israel made a left turn from these things at some point. Their various exiles are testament to that (Note: the Jews are not "Israel", necessarily. I mean, while they are Israel's seed, yes, they are the 2-tribe kingdom of Judah/Benjamin. There are 10 other tribes that are also Israel... and all 12 made that wrong turn. The 10-tribe kingdom of Israel, first, then the 2-tribe kingdom of Judah/Benjamin. I digress).

    all humans are equal- 'Every human being is equal in worth to the whole world'.

    I absolutely agree. It is what my Lord has taught me. Yet, there are those here that believe it was "lawful" for one man, even of Israel, to own another. My Lord states that this is in error and was never part of the original law.

    Alturism was not optional- 'all moral principles concern the relation of man to his neighbor'

    Agreed, again. And I do see this belief manifest in a LOT of Jews that I know personally.

    Humans are believed to exist at the center of the universe in the Talmud.

    Apparently, science disagrees with you... and there are some here who would take you to the mat on that... but you won't get any argument from me!

    All humans are perfectible-

    I absolutely agree. By means of the spirit of God, holy spirit... ALL humans have the POTENTIAL to be perfect, and thus are perfectible. However, not all RECEIVE that spirit... and so not all WILL be perfected. Israel is excepted - all Israel WILL be saved. NOT becaused Israel is anything - but because a promise was made to Abraham, our forefather.

    From Moses to Akiba ben Joseph the ethics of achievement was echoed in the theme 'Love thy neighbor'.

    Yep! But apparently, some of "us" forgot that theme, deviated from it... and began to deal treacherously. Not only with our neighbor, but our brother, indeed our own flesh (wife/husband/children).

    God was thought to be a continuous worker so when humans work hard they share in the dignity of God-

    Agreed, although we might have different understandings as to exactly what that "work" is. Some believe it is the work of their hands, etc. I believe it is the works... of God.

    'God permits his shechinah to rest on Israel only when it works'.

    Agreed, again. And, again, just maybe different on what the "work" is...

    Something that is recited at Rosh Hashanah, New Year's, 'Remember us for Life, O King, you who take delight in life!'

    Don't take this the wrong way, dear one... but I don't usually wait for one day/time of year to make such a request. I believe EVERY day is a sabbath day to God, one to be kept holy.

    The issue of sin is discussed often in relation to the body and soul, are they opposed to each other or joined in common purpose.

    Totally agreed. Though, I would say "body and spirit." But I think we're on the same page.

    'soul and body were both creations of God, and so in their own way 'spiritual'.'

    When initially created, yes, I totally agree. After Adam sinned and was given a long garment of skin... flesh, with ITS blood... not so much.

    Nature, biology and spirituality were an interwoven role.

    Well, because the body came from the dust, yes. And without the spirit, the body is merely an empty vessel, sans life, yes. No problem there.

    Only the ascetic sects of Judaism thought of the body as evil.

    I don't think of the body as evil. True, the body has its own will... but that will can be conquered, by the spirit. An evil spirit, however, is an entirely different thing.

    'The soul of man is the lamp of God, he could never go out no matter what happened to the body.'

    I agree. I have shared that truth here on many occasions. You can cut off my arms, my legs, remove my heart and replace it with another's - the spirit that is inside my body is the same one. And, unlike the body, the spirit does not die; cannot die. It MUST be destroyed. So, I think we agree here, too.

    Like God, who was thought to never rest, humans were to continually work at various trades and skills so they could 'climb from strength to strength, from one stage of existence to an ever higher one.'

    I agree, with the exception of what constitutes "various trades and skills." My understanding is that it is the works of God that take us higher and higher (and I have learned this to be true), versus my own works. But, still... it is "work" that elevates us.

    So in Judaism since we cannot change being human we cannot change being a child of God.

    We can't change being human, true. But there is the event where Adam did change: from what he was before he sinned (complete in the image of God)... to what he was after he sinned (now having his own image). He did not change being human; he did change, however, what "human" now consisted of: in body AND spirit.

    We can improve as humans and regress but we are all in the family of God.

    And here, we must part ways in our beliefs, sorry. While I do agree that we were all INTENDED to be children of God, and INTENDED to be in the family of God... God does not MAKE us do/be anything we don't WANT to be. And if one does not WANT to be a child of God... one will manifest that desire... and so not be such a child. His choice; not God's.

    This is what is meant in the teachings about humans 'Perfectibility', some humans were thought to need extra work on that point in the afterlife.

    Do they change so that they are no longer human, then? Serious question, truly.

    Thank you for that insight, dear designs. Again, it is not far off from my understanding, as well. And since I am being taught by One who once was a Jew... no surprise at all. Very minimal differences, IMHO.

    Peace to you!

    YOUR servant, as I am servant to ALL those of the Household of God, Israel... whether Jew or "Samaritan"... and those who go with that House... and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • notverylikely
    notverylikely

    *raises hand*

    Wrong thread?

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Yup! Good try, though. There and here (and yes, I noticed. Did you notice? ).

    So, peace to you, dear NVL... truly.

    YOUR servant, as I am servant to ALL those of the Household of God, Israel... and those who go with... and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • tec
    tec

    I have enjoyed these discussions with Designs. I also agree with many of the things you say, though I must admit this confused me a bit at first. (forehead smacking moment, I think, because OF COURSE our beliefs should overlap in places) I do think that Christ fulfilled what was expected of the Messiah, and then some, but that certain ones just did not hear. (which has given room to the nations to enter into this covenant, so the nations should be grateful and not all 'we're better than you', as I know some are)

    I learned new things about Judaism these past few talks, so thank you, Designs. I'm glad for your presence on the board. (am happy that all of Israel will be saved, and while it may not be written or even true, it is my hope that all the nations can be saved as well, and love always hopes. Though I love Christ and God first.)

    (psst... NVL... put your hand down !)

    Tammy

  • designs
    designs

    Tammy, SA- thanks, this was a good discussion. When I left the Witnesses I had so many questions , so many gaps in my philosophy and outlook. The pleasant surprise was in studying something old, something part of my family and my wife's family, was the thing that healed a lot of wounds, answered a lot of questions and eventually closed religion but opened other doors. Hey that's life in all of its odd and beautiful wonder.

    NVL, come on in and have some what was that question ?

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Lets us not forget that Paul is stating his opinion on the matter, from his POV and how he was raised and educated.

    One man's opion on a whole religion is just that, One Man's opinion.

    As Peter said of Paul, "Our Brother Paul has expressed his views as per the knowledge that HE has been given". (I am paraphrasing of course).

    Sometimes we forget that OUR view of "inspired scripture" was NOT the view that the apostles had or Paul or even those after them.

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