by AGuest 36 Replies latest jw friends
Paul especially seems ignorant of these enlightened Sages, his anit-semetic rants spell trouble and smack of the worst forms of elitism.
Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision; 3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,
It looks to me like you're just mad because Paul beat you to it.
Deputy Dog,
One of the many pleasant surprises and many Aha moments in studying Judaism was to see how the Jewish Sages had been the source of so many things attributed to Jesus, and to highlight where this Jesus figure has some very un-Jewish ideas, strange for a person claiming to be a Jew.
Paul's diatribes against Judaism and his gaps in common things Jewish trip him up as not really being who we were taught he was. Its like a foreigner describing a culture not their own.
Like I said, a trip down to the ol Synagogue will shed some important light on these issues.
Why is Adam, in Judaism, so much nicer and magnanimous than the Jesus figure of the NT.
Jesus admonished those who were meant to be teaching and helping the poor and the downtrodden, and who were instead abusing them, showing no mercy. He called a spade a spade. But he also wept over them, wanting them to come to God. And even Paul said that ALL of Israel would be saved - perhaps just not to the elect.
Jesus obeyed his father in everything he did - even to the point of torture and death.
Jesus asked that those who tortured and killed him be forgiven. (which sounds pretty magnanimous to me) He taught (reiterated) that God wanted mercy, NOT sacrifice.
Even taking your version of Adam, may I ask you who tortured and killed him? Or who wronged Adam that there was anyone he could have forgiven?
(though perhaps I am wrong, but I thought Judaism thought Adam to be symbolic?)
Tammy
Designs, I have a question. It is sincere, and not meant to be some trick so I can attack your answer.
What do Jewish people think of the man, Jesus? Perhaps the answers are different for different people, but I would like to know, if you don't mind explaining this.
Tammy
If God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and instead wants every man to turn from his wicked ways and live, then he cannot have predestined them to be wicked, without even the possibility of redemption.
Tammy
"They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for."
It is a two way thing.
And this is where a "non-believer" looking from the oustide in woudl say, "That doesn't make any sense"
Indeed.
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”
Blessing in Christ,
Stephen
Tammy- Good questions. Let's go through them.
Pauls saying the Jews would be saved by Jesus is unneccesary since they already were 'saved' as 'children of God'. Paul is trying to unsave a group and then save them by some leaps and bounds of logic and a non-Jewish view of the Original Sin concept and the Torah.
Jesus of the Gospels tries to be an Observnat Jew and reflects some knowledge of the broader thinking within the Jewish community, but he is not the original thinker we were led to believe. His dying for Original sin and the deficencies of the Torah are unnecessary according to Judaism which had all of the bases covered already. Philosophically a religion should have evolved to that point after 2000 years.
Jesus forgave his executioners, good and heart felt. Adam is both a literary device in Judaism and in some sects real, the broader story is that he sits at the gates to Paradise and welcomes all of his children home to Gan Eden. Talk to a Reformed and a Orthodoz Rabbi to get the full picture. A messiah who kills himself for others is not necessary. A whole other picture will be laid out and in the process a refreshing view of Christianity, one that began as a Messianic sect which got quickly set aside for the system set up by foreign Bishops who wrote an entirely different script. Or as one Presbyterian theologian complained 'There is still to much Jewishness in our Christianity'.
Something went wrong.
Like I said, a trip down to the ol Synagogue will shed some important light on these issues.
I could say the same thing about a trip to Church to, we both would need the "right" one. Jews are/have been as (if not more) divided as Christians.
Hillel worte the Golden Rule, Ben Zoma and Bar Kappara wrote the essential lesson of the Shema was to live a good life and be blessed, Akiba ben Joseph wrote Love thy Neighbor.
You could attribute those sayings to whom ever you like, Christ was the only person, to perfectly live those things out.
One of the many pleasant surprises and many Aha moments in studying Judaism was to see how the Jewish Sages had been the source of so many things attributed to Jesus, and to highlight where this Jesus figure has some very un-Jewish ideas, strange for a person claiming to be a Jew.
Wasn't that the point? Jesus came to show them where they had gone wrong. I'm sure Jesus thought the "Jews" of his day were not very "Jewish" (or scriptural). He said as much.
From his perspective I'm sure many of the Jews of today wouldn't seem very Jewish and I'm sure many sects of Judaism of that day, would agree with him.
It seems to me that Jesus problem was not with the law, itself, but rather with those who preached but did not practice, and with the misapplication and/or lack of mercy often shown when putting the legalism of the law ahead of compassion.
Jesus both preached it and lived it, and brought it PERSONALLY to the masses (to the lost sheep of Israel)- something it would not seem had been done to that point. Sacrifices in the temple were still being done. He preached and lived without hypocrisy and then also also said he was the son of God, the Christ, the one prophesied about. There were the miracles. The resurrection. The Spirit poured out onto those who belonged to Him. (these last three, I understand that you and many others do not accept as having happened, but the first couple I don't think, so much)
Tammy
Tammy, in Paul's retelling of the point of Judaism and the Torah you get the impression that the Law was intentionally made by God (Jesus preincarnate) to be this 'Tutuor leading to Christ'. Whereas the Torah was understood to be a developed spiritual and philosophical system meant to remind people to be observant to their place on earth and before God and a system of justice. Messianic hopes were broad, from being a rebel against Roman occupation to a divine figure who would help usher in the Kingdom of God on earth, or a human elected by God to use Israel as the intermediator leading all of humanity to Gan Eden on earth. He would make possible brotherhood and peace among all races and cultures. He was to be the greatest of the Prophets. The Golden Age of humans is what the Sages later called a 'Idealistic Gossamer', a natural desire from hardship and oppression.
Isaiah ben Amoz and Ezekiel both describe this desire. Isaiah describes the gentle pacifist, the Apocalypse of Baruch describes a warrior willing to kick Rome out of the promised Land.
Things came to a head between Jews and Christians with a debate between Justin Martyr and Rabbi Tryphon who stated 'a Jew believes the Messiah will be a man from among men'...and he then had a few choice words to say about the Trinity in light of the Shema and what 'One God' really means.
One theme that Christians picked up on was the 'Suffering Messiah' found in the Talmud of Mashiach ben David who takes on the guise of a Leper. This is a Pantomime meant to make God have sorrow more than the Leper in the hopes God will alleviate the collective suffering of mankind. The paradox, familiar in Jewish Talmudic writing, is saying- when Israel and humanity reach the bottom God providentially lifts them up.
Two general views are held today, Traditionalist's look to a real Messiah to come and include a messianic prayer everyday in their morning worship. Progressives see the Messiah as a symbol of the ideals of Justice and Peace. Rabbi Joseph Perl of the Enlightenment said a century ago- the Messiah is a symbol to Jewish people of Redemption, Social Justice and Universal Peace and once free from oppression we can be accepted into the family of nations.
Well, my Lord has not yet given me what I am to share with you, dear designs (peace to you!), as to you last few posts. If/when he does, I will be sure to share it with you. He did, however, provide a response as to the Jewish belief that all are "children of God." Here is how he explained it to me:
The Jews believe this because they believe Adam is the father of all. That being the first man... and the son of God (which he was)... all who come from him are God's children. But this is not the only "son" of a spirit that has been in the earth. In the account of the sower(s) of seed, TWO sowed seed, not one. And one of those was evil. My Lord then reminded me that many Jews do not accept such truth because they don't really accept the One who related it, Christ.
So, then, my Lord asked me, "Is there any time, in man's existence accepted by such Jews that any other, besides the Most Holy One of Israel, sowed seed in the earth"? And the answer to that is, yes: the Nephilim also sowed seed in the earth, resulting in a mutant offspring. True, they did so through the daughters of men... and thus, "children of God"... and all such were destroyed. However, it goes to the point that others, besides the Most Holy One of Israel, have sowed seed in the earth.
He then asked me, "If such seed could be sown once before, can it not be sown again?" And I responded that, of course, it could but, as then, would not such seed also be sowed in women, the daughters of men, and so, again, be sons of God? And my Lord responded that, yes, that would be true, if such women were truly "children of God." He then asked me, "So what would make one NOT a child of God?" And I could not answer. So, he told me, and his explanation was sublime:
For such one to knowingly REJECT the Most Holy of Israel AS their Father... and take another as his/her father. Just like the nations are called "children" by an "adoption"... versus blood (of Abraham)... so, too, anyone... ANYONE... can choose to ADOPT another as their father and, in doing so, REJECT the Most Holy One of Israel as their Father. They do this by rejecting HIS spirit... and so the FRUITS of that spirit... which spirit gave the vessel of flesh that WAS Adam... life. So that he came to be a LIVING soul. Prior to that, he was just a vessel... with no life in himself... until God PUT life in him. THAT is what made him a "son" of God - God's life force... His breath, blood... semen... holy spirit... IN the vessel.
We, too, are vessels... and whose child we are is manifest by whose SPIRIT is in us. The spirit of LIFE... or the spirit of DEATH. If we have the spirit of death in us... then we cannot be God's child. Adam was not God's child because of his flesh... but because of his SPIRIT. If, then, we... LIKE ADAM... reject that SPIRIT... we reject God. As our Father. And so, it is not He who rejects as His children, but we Him. And so, like Adam... and Cain... we will carry... WITHIN us... the spirit ... of another "man". And so are HIS seed.
Adam rejected the spirit of God, which was initially in him... for the spirit of another... and thus, rejected God as his Father. In doing so, he also rejected God as the Father of all of his progeny, by selling such progeny to a NEW father, Death, through Satan. But... praise JAH... another Son has given HIS life to buy ALL such progeny... who remember that God IS their Father... back.
So, as a species, it is not necessarily cut-and-dried for us, either by God's will... or Adam's action. We can CHOOSE life... or choose death. And whichever we choose shows who our father is... and so whose children we truly are.
The vessels and spirits we have, dear ones... come from the man Adam AFTER he sinned. AFTER he rejected God as his Father and took on the law of another man and vowed to serve another man's house. We are, therefore, all of us... children of the Devil... by default. Unless... we do the OPPOSITE of Adam: REJECT death... and CHOOSE life.
There is One who said: "I am... the life."
May you all choose wisely... and I bid you all peace!
A slave of Christ,
SA
