Dear Designs...

by AGuest 36 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  PSacramento

  AH, but Stephen, to WHOM did Paul direct those Epistles?

  To believers in General? or the saints in specific? or to all that potentially could read them?

  The Jews believed to be predestined by God as his chosen people, Paul beleived this too, up until his little trip to Damascus.

  If God has already predestined a small group to be his children and no one else, then why preach? why did Paul Preach? why did Jesus Preach, why did any apostle preach to spread the Word when God has already decided who was his anyways ?
• 

  AGuest

  Ah, now, see, this is what gets "us" in trouble with non-believers, dear PSacto and Chalam (the greatest of love and peace to you, both, truly!). I have to ask: did you (either of you)... confirm your "understanding" with the Holy Spirit? Did you receive it from him? Please know, I am not judging or trying to be better or disagreeable... or any of those "bad" things folks have been accusing me of, lately... but I have to say that I don't think you did (and have to ask why DIDN'T you, guys?? Come ON, dear brothers... please! It's not that difficult!!). I say that because, unfortunately, neither of you have the matter accurate.

  I will leave that part of it at that, for now... unless someone cares to know. in which case I will go further. For now, however, I think that I must begin taking a few more minutes to think... before throwing my pearls. Given what I've been accused of, lately, I am sure you can both understand that.

  [Note to those of you who think you "know"... I would admonish you to check with the Holy Spirit first, as well, especially before you post some "who do you think you are, Shelby?" response. Because I don't "think" I am anything more than a good-for-nothing servant. But if you don't know either, then I would exhort you to keep your personal opinions and interpretation regarding this matter... and me... to yourself. If you DO know then, of course, by all means, post away - you will have my utmost support. But since folks are going around accusing ME of misleading others, I would ask that you make sure of what YOU "teach," as well. That it IS the TRUTH... and not just what you have discerned from reading the Bible or been taught by others who you KNOW are not joined to Christ... simply by means of their fruits.]

  Everyone else, please forgive me if I seem... perturbed. I am not at dear PSacto or Chalam... and only address them in the same spirit as Priscilla and Aquilla addressed Apollos. But for those who only want to have their ears "tickled,"... well, listen up: that isn't going to happen with me. If you want to know the TRUTH... then that is what I will be permitted... and directed... to share with you. And nothing less. If you want something else... then that's on you.

  I bid you all peace!

  A slave of Christ,

  SA, who also says that since I started the thread, I do believe it's quite okay for me to post what I wish to ON it... as to this matter and any other... and if someone wishes to take exception, they shouldn't... as they didn't NEED to open the thread at all, particularly since they supposedly KNOW how I post, anyway...
• 

  Chalam

  AH, but Stephen, to WHOM did Paul direct those Epistles?

  To believers in General? or the saints in specific? or to all that potentially could read them?

  PS, sounds simialr to the WT teaching, "the New Testament is only for the 144, 000 and indeed only they can understand it."

  Anyhow, let the Spirit confirm the text in your heart, I am sure He does :)

  The Jews believed to be predestined by God as his chosen people, Paul beleived this too, up until his little trip to Damascus.

  Time to press on with Romans, starting at Romans 9, Romans 10, Romans 11 :)

  If God has already predestined a small group to be his children and no one else, then why preach? why did Paul Preach? why did Jesus Preach, why did any apostle preach to spread the Word when God has already decided who was his anyways ?

  The old rebuttal to Calvanists! Time for more reading :)

  The Five Points of Calvinism

  Calvinism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  In short, election does not negate the elect having to hear the message and believe it.

  Romans 10:14-15 (New International Version)

  14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

  Blessings in Christ,

  Stephen
• 

  designs

  Thanks for everyone's ideas. My original point was that certain red flags appear in the NT retelling of Judaism, enough so that any practicing or non-practicing Jew would catch the discrepancies. Judaism was evolving as a religious system and as a philosophical way to define what is human in relation to the earth and cosmos. The biggest leaps occured after they were released from Babylon up to the 2nd and 4th centuries AD, then in the Middle Ages of Europe great teachers like Maimonides came along to try and move Jewish thought, which contained its fair share of superstitions, into a more reasonable and enlightened life guide.

  They were struggling with and making the attempts to undo cultural bias and prejudice but they were still an insular culture at the time of Jesus. But they did recognize certain things about all humans, and that was the 'we are all children of God' comment. Humans were believed to be in line to meet Adam at the gates of Paradise with some temporary punishment in store for the wicked after which they would join their big human family. That very basic Jewish belief is missing in the NT replaced by a conditionalism.. 'Jeus saves' would really be almost redundant to a group who already felt saved on two levels- being human and being descendents of Abraham. Remember the slogan in the 70s 'We Never Lost It' the Jewish response to being proselytized by the Jesus People. If all of your family is in Paradise because God already made that possible what is with the extra saving by Jesus. And from a Jewish perspective the Gentile world is already taken care of and will enter Paradise then the same question of why something more is needed comes up.

  We should discuss Original Sin and Satan, from the historical writings of the Sages and Teachers of Judaism. The Book of Job does present the idea of a Protagonist Angel of God made by G-d for that purpose. This was the concept of Yetzer ha-Rab, or as Isaiah puts it 'I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil', Satan in Judaism is the nag who God uses to provoke people to examine themselves and question and then to reach their higher more noble aspirations and goals. From the Sages- 'Virtue without temptation is a fragile weed'.

  Certainly 'Paul' whoever that was seems obilvious to these central tenants of his Faith. This is the other part of the concept, Evil is within- Yetzer Tob was the solution, do good. Sages like Rabbi Hillel who preceeded Jesus by several centuries used the term later found in the Gospels 'The Kingdom of God is within', now that is a very Jewish idea, Yetzer Tob!

  Anyway I look forward to hearing from all of you and getting your input.
• 

  PSacramento

  Shelby, Stephen and I are voicing our opinions on how certian passages can be read and HAVE been read.

  As we see by the views of Calvanist and the views of Catholics ( and more), there ARE different opinions on the matter.

  PS, sounds simialr to the WT teaching, "the New Testament is only for the 144, 000 and indeed only they can understand it."

  Yes, having an elect does indeed sound like WT teaching doesn't it?

  In short, election does not negate the elect having to hear the message and believe it.

  And this is where a "non-believer" looking from the oustide in woudl say, "That doesn't make any sense".

  If one is predestined and foreknown by God, certainly then they have no choice in the matter and certainly then "God will find away" even if NO ONE preached, I mean, we are talking about God here.
• 

  PSacramento

  On a side note please understand that I do know that the message of Christ is NOT for everyone, even though Christ did indeed Die because He loved of Us all.

  Revelation makes it clear that even after Christ reigning on Earth there will be those that rebel and go with Satan.

  Christ's message is for all to hear but not all will accept it, as we have seen here and in pur personal lives.

  Now, some can view that as predestination but sorry, I can't view it THAT way, that way would mean that God had already predestined some to eternal darkness, which would make God unfair and dark and we know that in God, there is NO darkness, only Light and love.

  Perhaps I am not seeing predestined in the same way you are...
• 

  Deputy Dog

  Certainly 'Paul' whoever that was seems obilvious to these central tenants of his Faith.

  His faith... or yours? Paul gives his backround.

  Php 3:2

  Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision; 3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, 4 although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: 5circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.
• 

  designs

  In Judaism you see a range of thoughts on such things as Providence and Immortality, from over the top superstition to these things being of not much concern. The famous groups the Sadducees and Pharisees over ideas of Divine intervention with the Saducees being more skeptical materialists and the Pharisees being supporters of Providence.

  What occupied the more broad masses were the teachings of the Sages who tried to distill the Torah into an everyman's language. Hillel worte the Golden Rule, Ben Zoma and Bar Kappara wrote the essential lesson of the Shema was to live a good life and be blessed, Akiba ben Joseph wrote Love thy Neighbor.

  Sound familiar, and people think Jesus of Nazareth originated these sayings.

  Paul especially seems ignorant of these enlightened Sages, his anit-semetic rants spell trouble and smack of the worst forms of elitism.
• 

  tec

  If God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and instead wants every man to turn from his wicked ways and live, then he cannot have predestined them to be wicked, without even the possibility of redemption.

  Tammy
• 

  designs

  Tammy,

  You have hit of the essential difference between Judaism and Christianity, one says every human is and will be redeemed and the other, latter said group, says a big chunk is predestined for eternal damnation. Why is Adam, in Judaism, so much nicer and magnanimous than the Jesus figure of the NT.