When God breaks his own laws

by Nickolas 111 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • tec
    tec

    Is there any way he [a Muslim] might be able to identify the flaws in his reasoning (without, say, any significant knowledge of the bible or Christiantity)?

    If a Christian can identify flaws in his/her reasoning, (and many have) then why not a Muslim? Or a buddhist? Or a Hindu? I admit, its hard to do, sometimes next to impossible, but it can and has been done. Nor does one have to lose faith in God, just because they have recognized flaws in their religion, and his/her reasoning.

    Now to switch from one of these major religions to another... that's probably even more difficult, but again, it happens. Something to note is that muslims already believe in Jesus, and think that he was a great prophet. Just not that he was the son of God - and especially not God himself.

    Tammy

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    Is there any way he [a Muslim] might be able to identify the flaws in his reasoning (without, say, any significant knowledge of the bible or Christiantity)?

    Yes, in his very won Holy Book, the Quran, there are far more passages advocating love, forgiveness, accepteance and tolderance than there are those advocating killing the infidel, it is up to the individual to decide which path they will walk.

  • Joey Jo-Jo
    Joey Jo-Jo

    So does anyone agree that the God of the OT is the same in the NT?

  • tec
    tec

    He is the same. Perceptions of Him have changed, since Christ came to show us Him.

    Tammy

  • SweetBabyCheezits
    SweetBabyCheezits

    TEC and Psac, I just realized I was kinda vague in my question....

    Psac, you don't believe Islam is the true faith, correct? So regardless of whether a Muslim chooses to be a peaceful moderate or a radical terrorist, the Koran is just a book, right? No divine inspiration or message there? I thought that was a given but if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.

    I'm talking about a Muslim identifying flaws in his reasoning that lead him to realize he just accepted the most prominent religion in his childhood environment and that Islam and the Koran are the product of man, not god.

    The point I wanted to make is that critical thinking would be his ally; stripping back presupposition and bias. If he doesn't do that FIRST, then questioning his cherished beliefs will only lead to bias confirmation and he'll think he's proven his faith to himself. It has to be introspective and he has to analyze his thinking. Would you agree?

  • Joey Jo-Jo
    Joey Jo-Jo

    Tec: My question was probably a bit vague, all the wars and killings, suffering occurs only to the bad, the prophecy of the messiah would be one to rule with authority as king on earth... all according to the OT.

    The NT God is love, long suffering (Paul) occurs more to good people, God leaves everyone in the dark, jesus dies which confuses even more the jews, , Jesus keeps the torah and abolishes it.

    Then later after his death apostles write scripture which later in aramaic latin greek are text contradictions (Mark and Luke on Jesus)

    see the difference OT-God of wrath NT - God of love

    How can ex 34:6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The Lord , the Lord , the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, you read from Exodus to Deuteronomy and none of this makes any sense, Im just glade I was not from Canaa at that time.

  • tec
    tec

    Psac, you don't believe Islam is the true faith, correct? So regardless of whether a Muslim chooses to be a peaceful moderate or a radical terrorist, the Koran is just a book, right? No divine inspiration or message there? I thought that was a given but if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.

    I haven't read the Quran so I can't answer definitively, (or at least as close to definitively as possible). I don't precisely know what Mohammed taught because I haven't read it.

    But I actually believe what Jesus taught. I believe Him. I am sure that there are spiritual truths and morality to be found in any of the world religions. Cause and effect make for good teachers. But there is no dying to establish a kingdom on this earth, according to Christ. No material rewards, or 72 virgins (really, what about the poor virgins' rewards ) There is forgiveness, there is love, there is mercy to all (friends and enemies) and there is call for faith in your Father in heaven. There is the hope that when we die we will be with him - that is the reward. There is the love that we should do good and show kindness while we are here.

    The point I wanted to make is that critical thinking would be his ally; stripping back presupposition and bias. If he doesn't do that FIRST, then questioning his cherished beliefs will only lead to bias confirmation and he'll think he's proven his faith to himself. It has to be introspective and he has to analyze his thinking. Would you agree?

    Yes, I would to a point - but most people (those with and without faith) don't or can't recognize bias in themselves. For example: Is it a presupposition to believe that faith in a creator (s) is superstition and never had any basis in reality?

    Tammy

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    Psac, you don't believe Islam is the true faith, correct? So regardless of whether a Muslim chooses to be a peaceful moderate or a radical terrorist, the Koran is just a book, right? No divine inspiration or message there? I thought that was a given but if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.

    It is not MY palce to judge another persons faith as "true" or not, that I God's place.

    But to me the Koran is just a book, yes, like the bible is just a book, with the difference that in the bible we have the words of the Son of God, while in the Koran we have the words of one claiming to be God's prophet.

    I'm talking about a Muslim identifying flaws in his reasoning that lead him to realize he just accepted the most prominent religion in his childhood environment and that Islam and the Koran are the product of man, not god.

    It is possible for him to do so, yes, many have.

    The point I wanted to make is that critical thinking would be his ally; stripping back presupposition and bias. If he doesn't do that FIRST, then questioning his cherished beliefs will only lead to bias confirmation and he'll think he's proven his faith to himself. It has to be introspective and he has to analyze his thinking. Would you agree?

    Yes, but to do that he has to acknowledge that something BEYOND his holy book can lead him.

  • cyberjesus
    cyberjesus

    God breaks his own laws and we justify it by saying : "Well he is God and he has the power to do it", or "are you God to know what is right or wrong?"

    Cognitive Dissonance at its best.

    Things that make no sense whatsoever and we just JUSTIFY or RATIONALIZE.

    We see the Irrationality of those stories and we turn around.

    1000s of conversations will happen. Nothing will change.

    We want to believe what we want to believe.

  • SweetBabyCheezits
    SweetBabyCheezits
    Is it a presupposition to believe that faith in a creator (s) is superstition and never had any basis in reality?

    TEC, in either case (belief or disbelief),it all depends on how/when the conviction was ascertained, right?

    If, for example, the assumption you included above was accepted during childhood, based on one's environment, and carried into adulthood then yes, it is most definitely a presupposition.

    But a supposition and a presupposition are two different things, as in judging and prejudging (prejudice). A presupposition is defined as "a supposition made prior to having knowledge."

    To figure out if we've built our beliefs (or disbelief) on presupposition, we've gotta dig deep and be absolutely honest with ourselves. That's not easy because the mind tries to conceal bias. We are incredibly self-deceptive but that is where trained critical thinking comes in. Just because we may not be able to remove ALL prejudice, doesn't mean we shouldn't try to remove or suppress it to the best of our ability. If a person ignores that a presupposition has molded their thinking, he/she will not be able to judge impartially - and isn't that an important factor for a fair judgment?

    Please bear in mind, I didn't leave the WT an atheist. I was disillusioned when I discovered the Society was just a high control publishing company but I still believed in Yahweh and Jesus, and I began searching for the most accurate translation of the bible available. I often used gatewaybible.com to compare multiple translations in an attempt to get the most accurate meaning. My goal was truth without bias.... and yet an atheistic comment that offended me (following an online news article) left me realizing that I was still basing so much of my faith on a prejudiced mindset.

    Soon thereafter, I started trying to find the roots of my faith and realized I had to start from scratch since so much of my remaining beliefs were still tied to childhood presuppositions.

    But back to your question... could I now be hung up on a presupposition that causes my lack of belief*? I truly don't think so, if only because a release of presupposition is what led me here. But I do have to ask myself regularly if maybe there's some bias against belief in god, say, due to my fallout with the WT. Thus far I can't find any desire in myself to not believe in a personal god. Could that be self-deception? Perhaps. But my consciousness tells me it would be great to have some kind of faith that immortality is achievable. And at this point, that realm of thinking lies in theology. So if I were not controlling my bias, I think it would push me towards theism, not away from it.

    (*My views range between deism and atheism. I do not claim that a supernatural designer is impossible, only that I've yet to see adequate evidence to support it.)

    There is the love that we should do good and show kindness while we are here.

    Hypothetical: What kind of person would you rather watch over your children: The person who is good because he think he's being watched and fears punishment or seeks a reward? Or the person who is good because he believes in the humanistic value of doing good and does not think he's being watched?

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