Sweeney
I suppose you would say a human without wrath is more than God?
"Do We Have to Jump From the Watchtowers Frying Pan into Hellfire?"
by leavingwt 53 Replies latest jw friends
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Ding
Onemore,
I understand how you feel.
In interpreting the Bible or any other writing, it's appropriate to consider the context, the culture, various denotations and connotations of the words used, other passages dealing with the same subject, and the like.
At some places, though, even after we have gone through this process, we come across passages that offend our sense of justice or contradict what we think a loving God would or wouldn't do or allow.
To say, "The Bible teaches such-and-so but I don't accept that because I find it repulsive" is intellectually honest.
To say, "The Bible doesn't really teach such-and-so because I find it repulsive" is not.
When we come across some "hard teachings" in the Bible, we have to make a decision.
We can choose to stop believing the Bible, which many people do.
Or we can accept what it says and trust that God's understanding and justice are superior to ours.
Where we cross the line, I think, is in starting with what we prefer God to be like and then eisegeting it into the text.
We get a god we like that way, but it's a god of our own creation.
As an example, I personally would like to believe that in the end everyone will be redeemed and be transformed into loving, caring people who live forever.
I can find a verse that I like and ignore the rest and make it my theology of the afterlife: 2 Peter 3:9: "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."
I can make that the be-all and end-all of my view of the future and feel very good about the outcome (universal salvation), but my belief is based on my personal preference, not on the actual teaching of the Bible.
The WTS does this with Ecclesiastes 9:5. They quote the first half of the verse and make it the cornerstone of their view of the "afterlife": "For the living are conscious that they will die, but the dead are conscious of nothing at all..." Everything else, such as Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus, and the "torment" mentioned in Revelation 20:10, gets redefined through symbolic interpretation to match the template.
In so doing, the ignore the entire "under the sun" context of the book of Ecclesiastes, including the rest of the quotation in Ecclesiastes 9:5-6: "... neither do they have any more wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion any more to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun."
If that entire passage is taken outside its "under the sun" context and used as God's revelation of what happens after death, then we would have to conclude that death is the permanent end of life and that there is no bodily resurrection, clearly contrary to many other passages in the Bible.
The Watchtower interpretation also ignores or redefines many other passages of Scripture to bolster its preferred outcome.
My point in all this is that any of us can start with the way we want things to be, write it out, and even come up with isolated verses or half-verses from the Bible to bolster our preferences, but if that's what we're going to do, we ought to be honest enough to admit to ourselves that we are creating our own religion based on our own desires.
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OUTLAW
The WBT$ says the World believes "This".....The WBT$ says the World believes "That"
The WBT$ says the World believes "The other Thing"..
When has the WBT$ been Right about Anything?..
When do exJW`s find out for themselves..What the outside world really believes,without WBT$ influence?..
When do they decide for themseves if some beliefs sound reasonable or not?..
It`s not necessary to believe..What the WBT$ says your going to believe,when you leave the WBT$..
It`s not even Sane..
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...OUTLAW -
onemore
Hi Ding,
After leaving the WT (at least mentally), I have found it very difficult to arrive to conclusive position regarding certain teachings. I have realized that just because a biblical teaching (or interpretation) is considered to be Orthodox (or has the support of the majority), does not make it truth, or definitive.
There are certain teachings that, at this particular moment in my journey, I neither fully reject nor accept. One of them is the eternal hellfire. That is a topic that I would like to study a little deeper before taking a final position (right after I’m done studying the Tri-unity..LOL ). I won’t deny that perhaps I’m biased towards certain doctrines as result of my training as a JW. But my experience has thought me to be a little more inquisitive as to the origin and the source of any particular teaching deemed as the “Truth”.
The risk or drawing my own conclusion is great, and I’ll be only fooling myself if I shape a god to my image. But as the saying goes…From error to error, one discovers the entire truth. So far, I’m comfortable sticking to basics…there is one true God, the Bible is his Word, Jesus is my savior, He’ll comeback (one day), there will be a resurrection, reward for the ones deemed worthy and punishment for the ones declared unworthy. As to the matter of, the current state of the dead, hellfire, and the Trinity…I don’t have any problems calling myself an agnostic Christian. Meaning that as I continue learning and restructuring the details of my believe system, I won’t speak in favor not against any of those teachings. So I agree with your position, one should not reject a biblical teaching just because it’s hard for us to accept.
Thanks
Onemore
P.S (yes… I’m realizing that I was recruited into a “cult” , I meant to tell you that a little while ago).
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Mad Sweeney
I suppose you would say a human without wrath is more than God?
There is no human without wrath. One would need to be perfect to acheive such a thing but it is good to aspire to. Only man-made gods are wrathful because they are created in man's image.
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Chalam
Thanks for posting LWT.
The article was going pretty well but I got the idea after a while that it was going the way of universalism, which indeed it did.
IMHO, reading the bible one is maybe even less likely to arrive at this conclusion than the WT style annihilationism.
Anyhow, there are scores of verses pitted directly against the universalist view but as I have just been reading Hebrews, these come to mind.
Hebrews 4:3 (New International Version © 2010)
3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world.
Hebrews 4:5 (New International Version © 2010)
5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”
The bible says this.
Hebrews 9:27 (New International Version © 2010)
27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment
Revelation 21:6-8 (New International Version © 2010)
6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Hebrews 3:7-11 (English Standard Version)
A Rest for the People of God
7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says,
"Today, if you hear his voice, 8 do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
on the day of testing in the wilderness,
9 where your fathers put me to the test
and saw my works for forty years.
10 Therefore I was provoked with that generation,and said, 'They always go astray in their heart;
they have not known my ways.'
11 As I swore in my wrath,
'They shall not enter my rest.'"So, as it says, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts but enter into His rest :)
Blessings in Christ,
Stephen
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Deputy Dog
Mad Sweeney
There is no human without wrath. One would need to be perfect to acheive such a thing but it is good to aspire to.
A human that expesses no wrath would be far from perfect. Any human who did not express anger at unrighteousness would be most sinful.
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Ding
Hi Onemore,
I think you're wise to take your time examining things.
I agree with you that the majority isn't always right.
However, I also believe that Bible interpretations that have been accepted for centuries deserve the respect of consideration and study, whereas the WTS did the exact opposite. If "Christendom" believes something, the WTS must be against it.
Randy Watters did some good studies on the afterlife after leaving the WTS in the 80s. His studies are available through www.freeminds.org. It's worth a look as you study that topic for yourself.
If you'd like to PM me on any of these topics and discuss them back and forth, I'll be happy to do that with you.
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Joliette
The hellfire thing for me is very hard to get. I think a lot of the bible is symbolic and not literal. Along with the only 'getting destroyed' thing. None of it sounds logical, and it all sounds like the Jehovah of the old testament.
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GrandmaJones
LWT - Your article was extremely interesting and food for thought. It gives a viewpoint and argument that was not only thoughtful, but very well written.
Personally, I am not sure what I believe right now, or if I will ever again choose any concrete belief. One of the things that has always bothered me a great deal was the idea that Christianity is the sole truth. With most of the world strongly believing in other theologies, and most of mankind that have ever lived or died in that same position, I have always questioned how and why God would choose to make his will known only to a chosen few, just to Christians, with the rest of mankind unable to avail themselves of knowledge (regardless of how fuzzy at the present) and then punish and destroy the majority of mankind for failing to follow and uphold his standards of behaviour. It just has never made sense to me, and up to now, I am not convinced in this regard. Really, I am not sure that I would even want to worship such a god. One of the many reasons that I am apostate by JW standards, (even though I am still "in" for the present).
