I'm an ABSENTHEIST. Are you also?

by EdenOne 284 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  prologos

  Trying to comprehend the 'absence' by using analogies from the imaginary deities leads to wars of words. Here is a different illustration:

  The 'expanding balloon membrane' universe has been invoked on this forum, and it can be used for 'absent' too. Absent but existing. The denizen of the membrane see only along it's zero thickness, - forward backward, left & right. they know their world is expanding, because distances are get longer. They can even calculate the starting point, estimate the present radius of their membrane, but any information , even of the 'formation' is absent. because they can not see in the radius direction. The past and future lie in that direction, these are absent in our expanding sphere, but we know they are real, because we were there, and know we eventually will be not.

  Among absentees outside the skin would be the creator* of it all, watching us -- from a distance, the absent radius.

  *unless some of the flatlanders , those that can not see past the curvature are right, and this 2+x dimensional universe created itself.
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  Phizzy

  I suppose we must admit that the word "Absent" is probably the wrong one to use in the context of talking about any God, which is what I think Cofty has tried to hammer home over the last god knows how many pages (LOL).

  If I believed in Pink Unicorns with Purple Spots, for which there is not a shred of evidence, I may say that they are "absent", I would certainly not use the word "absent" if I were a non-believer in the lovely little pinky beasts.

  Eden, by using "Absent" you sound at least just a little bit Theist.
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  prologos

  I am wrong about asserting we have no information, of course the photons climbing out of the deep pit when the universe was small, carry information of the past that does not exist (now absent) any more.
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  EdenOne

  You're clinging to the notion that "absence" implies "existence". I have demonstrated that such isn't the case, as it accepts both the possibility or existence or non-existence. It merely notes that God (or deity) isn't present, and that is the only positive empirical statement that can be said about God.

  It doesn't make anyone a theist or atheist - it is the most fundamental and demonstratable of skeptical statements about God.

  Eden
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  M*A*S*H

  I am not sure I agree with your logic.

  As others have pointed out the term Absentheist does IMHO suggest a bias (although I understand it is not intended). 'Absent' conjures up the idea that although we cannot find God in this universe, God probably does exist somewhere (perhaps heaven even)!?

  I also disagree with saying you "... CAN prove that God is absent", especially using the definition you proposed. In the definition a) states god is "Immaterial"... by this definition god could be sat on your lap and but you would not be able to prove he is not. Once something is defined as immaterial or spiritual - what evidence can you suggest that proves this god is absent?

  I think I understand why you would like a new term, but personally I do not like absentheist. Maybe others like the idea?
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  Ruby456

  mash - absentheist is closer to what atheists here seem to be saying because so many people believe in God via their own experiences and via divine revelation and and we cannot provide proof that he categorically does not exist somewhere in the universe. fact is though that people generally do not feel it necesssary to prove that he does empirically.

  eden most atheists mean that God is absent rather than that he does not exist - hard atheists who say categorically that God does not exist are evangelising about atheism. edit: btw congratulations on your journey from belief to skepticism.
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  EdenOne

  Ruby, I understand that is the case. That's why I think that the term "atheism" is only correct when we're talking about the "hard atheist" type. Being skeptical about the existence of God does not equal being hard atheist, and that's why I think a new, different term is needed to clarify the difference. I too am on the skeptical side, but I refuse to be identified with atheism, especially the kind of rabid, evangelizing, dogmatic and proselitizing kind of atheism that has become popular in recent years. Plus, I want to keep an open mind to evidence in favor of the existence of God, albeit I concede it may be a remote possibility.

  Thinking about how I would define my stand regarding God, I have concluded that the only thing I can personally be positive about it is that is not present, it's absent. Hence, absentheism is a term that defines a specific skepticism about the existence or non existence of deities, based on the basic premise that God isn't demonstrably present.

  Eden
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  Ruby456

  well you would feel very at home with David Hume as he was more very skeptical of God and despite sometimes saying he was agnostic, I think, from reading some of his work, that absentheist would fit him very nicely. However, he did not think life was vacuous and empty without God but that it was full of imaginative and meaningful habits and this is what I was trying to get across to you.
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  galaxie

  The word absence when referring to the theistic god surely must be married with ' as exists in the mind ' this then would distinguish the notion of an actual being existing to that of the existance of the belief in god which is derived from the brain.

  Although the definition of the word absence may include ' non existance ' it could and imo mean not existing in the given scenario but either has or does exist in reality outwith the subject of discussion. I feel that the use of the word absence in referring to god ie ' god is absent ' is counter productive and leans toward belief that indeed god exists. Therefore if you truly feel god does not exist through lack of evidence or otherwise I feel the use of absent in that context is misused.
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  EdenOne

  Galaxie,

  the point is that I don't want to make any assumptions regarding the existence or non-existence of God. I simply want to claim the only thing that merits empirical evidence status: that God isn't present. It's a skeptical claim in nature, because it discards the so-called "proof" offered by theists, but doesn't make any claims about the inexistence of God that would come under attack because there's no evidence to support the inexistence of God, either. Also, we're talking here of a deity that is exterior to the individual. Because, if God is only a product of my mind, then he is as real as my thoughts are real. If you have a better word to describe the lack of presence than 'absence', I'm all ears.

  Ruby

  there are so many things in life that can fill it with meaning and enjoyment, that God isn't a necessity unless you're in absolute dispair. Even then, most people realize that God wasn't there for them in their hour of need. He was conspicuosly ... Absent.

  Eden