*Grace* According to JW's. Your thoughts will be appreciated.

Lily Pie

Hi, I'm a bit of a lurker on this site occasionally, just to help me understand my JW relative. I am so curious to ask this question, but I fear asking a practicing JW, because you know, they can be a tad evasive, and maybe defensive too.

Lutherans say. By Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, Because of Christ Alone.

All Protestants agree on the Five Solas. Particularly it is important to note they beleive.

1. That Salvation is a gift - it cannot be earnt, especially since we all fall short of deserving salvation by a large measure. (GRACE: Gods Riches At Christs Expense)

2. Believing in Christ is sufficient for salvation. However saving faith is evidenced by good works. I think like this "FAITH WORKS"

The Watchtower says they believe (according to thier website)

People God approves will receive everlasting life

John 3:16 ; 10:27, 28 ; 17:3 ; Mark 10:29, 30

Christ's human life was paid as a ransom for obedient humans	Matt. 20:28 ; 1 Tim. 2:5, 6 ; 1 Pet. 2:24
Christ's one sacrifice was sufficient	Rom. 6:10 ; Heb. 9:25-28

(** it seems they have inserted words like "approve" and "Obedient")

Any way, I don't really want to have a debate on the merits of the doctrine itself. (If you want to do that though you are welcome) I am just really really curious..... see the following questions.....

What do Jehovahs Witnesses think of Christendoms take on *Grace* and the importance of active faith over works?

What do Jehovah's Witnesses actually believe both privately and publicly on the effect of Christs ransom on salvation?

Any other comments?

I feel bad for the JW's doing the doorknocking. Not only is it counterproductive, but it's an unnessesary work isn't it? If your hearts not in it I don't see the point......

Thank you for taking the time to answer this. You guys I'm sure will be a good sounding board....

Bless you all.

Lily Pie

fokyc

Welcome to the site, you are new here.

There is ONLY ONE 'Grace' on this forum!

Our dear 'Mouthy' or Grace Gough.

Lily Pie

*Cute* fokyc. I'll have to wait and see what you mean....

I am new. Thank you for welcoming me...

debator

Hi lilly pie

I am a practising Witness and we would welcome your questions as someone that has taken the time to consider what we talk about.

Firstly let me concur that we too think "faith" comes first and produces "works" by it's existence. So it isn't faith OR works but that a person having faith inspires works in them hense why James can say.

James 2:17 (New International Version)

17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action (works), is dead.

Your next confusion is that grace has become a word which is used as a noun rather than looking at what it means so we goto meaning.

Grace = undeserved kindness.

Jesus paid the ransom price we simply couldn't as imperfect humans. So because he paid the price by his sacrifice we can gain the reward through this but this shows it is by an act of undeserved kindness/grace that we receive this reward because we couldn't pay the price ourselves. It took God's son coming to earth becoming a perfect man to save us.

You mention your dislike of us preaching to people but we take this as a serious commision from Jesus.

Mark 16:15
He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

Lily Pie

Hi debator. Thank you for your time.

We you and I, agree completely on the faith/works thing. I too would use the James quote, to define my position on this.

Yes I agree that Grace can be a verb and not a noun.

And you know what else i agree that preaching is a serious commission from jesus. Indeed the entire new testament from my point of view is a call to action.

Since you are a practicing JW, I wonder if you can comment, if you have an opinion on what mainstream Christians believe on the whole Faith Works equation?

OUTLAW

Lilly pie..

Debator/Reniaa is no Jehovah`s Witness..

LOL!!..

Although she likes to come here and pretend..

Your going to nothing but BullShit out of that one..

We have real Active JW`s on the board..She`s not one of them

...................... ...OUTLAW

debator

Hi lily

Thank you for your reply.

My own personal opinion of the use of "Grace" outside of witnesses is that it has lost it's meaning and become a bit of a label. Demonstrated when I asked various Christians what it meant and they couldn't answer. They know "grace" is needed and we as Christians benefit from it but beyond I think they have become faulty on it. It's like the use of the word "charity" instead of "love" many people think that it is a different word (and it is in modern usage) but biblically they are the same word.

Chalam

Welcome Lily Pie!

The first thing you need to know is that "grace" does not appear in the JW bible, the New World Translation.

Grace is not taught, it is not part of the WT doctrine, indeed the process of "salvation" for JWs is long and difficult. JW need to keep up a full portfolio of "works", not only through this life but also the millennium and then survive Armageddon and judgement day to make it to "paradise earth". Most of all then need to follow their mediator, the "Faithful And Discrete Slave" (The WatchTower) wherever it leads and whatever it dictates.

Secondly, the true WT doctrine can been seen by the fruit. JWs are caught up in the falsehood of salvation by works, no doubt about it. My JW friend said to me once "I hope I am doing enough to have my name written in the Book of Life".

Those who are born again only need to keep their faith in Jesus Ephesians 1:13, Galatians 3:26, Hebrews 10:39

One can enter the Kingdom without works 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 but hopefully most will have an inheritance Ephesians 2:10, Matthew 6:19-21

Blessings in Christ,

Stephen

Lily Pie

Stephen. Thank you for replying.

I have been told by a Jehovah's Witness that when one gets resurrected they get another 1000 years to *practice* for the next judgement. This is a really confusing viewpoint. That I'm not sure is shared by all JW's. So I'm happy to hear someone else who has heard this same version. It is surprising and interesting. This same person also highlighted the value of works, and trying to be good enough. Though these ideas are qualified by reminding me that we are all imperfect.

I checked the NWT, and you are right. But we can be happy that the *meaning* has not been lost in Eph2:8 (the verse I checked)

Lily Pie

Chalam

There are one or two points mentioned in this thread about the "perfection" of JWs in the millenium The JW belief "death pays for sin"

Not of course that all JWs are deemed to make it, some fail to make perfection and "die at Armageddon".

I keep my understanding of WT theology to a minimum.

Better to be armed with the word and a discerning spirit rather than attempt to get to the bottom of the shifting sand of the WT. We know there is no Rock under there 1 Corinthians 3:11

Sure, "underserved kindness" in the NWT might bear some resemblance to grace but the change is not without significance. Everything is done by the WT is to keep JWs from the Grace of our Lord and Saviour Ephesians 6:24, 2 Corinthians 13:14 , 2 Thessalonians 2:16

The meaning is totally lost of Ephesians 2:8 on JWs because they don't believe the scripture but what the WT says.

Blessings in Christ,

Stephen

Grace According to JW's. Your thoughts will be appreciated.

Lily Pie

fokyc

Lily Pie

debator

Lily Pie

OUTLAW

debator

Chalam

Lily Pie

Chalam

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