The Dawkins Delusion

by brotherdan 181 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    I haven't read the pages of response, just the opening post. So bear with me if this has been covered and put me down as another debator on Dawkins' side.

    So before he even begins his examination he implies that religious belief is NEVER based on evidence and that it exists DESPITE the evidence. This seems to me the sort of presupposing that the WTS does itself! If it was an HONEST examination he should be aware that religious faith can be based on argument. He may reject those arguments as false, but that doesn't change the fact that his own definition of faith is limited. He sticks to this definition throughout the entire book.

    What's your argument here? You say that Dawkins says religious belief is NEVER based on evidence and then you insist that religious belief is based on arguments. Arguments are not evidence. You could be agreeing with him while being upset at him at the same time. I read conflicting messages where you first agree then you disagree. Even the Christian standard, the Bible, goes along with the part about evidence when it defines "faith."

    ...the best overall explanation of the whole of the facts and evidence around us.

    This worked back in the day, but our examination of facts and evidence got better. The best overall explanations of prior stages of man allowed for the earth being the center of the flat earth, for there being a god of virtually everything. When a volcano erupted, the best overall explanation at the time was that the mountain or the god of the mountain was mad, and a human sacrifice was needed to appease the anger. Reasoning/arguing over what we see is still not evidence. When the facts were finally available that the earth is not flat nor the center of the universe, those explanations were discarded (well, by most people eventually). Certainly, there is ample evidence now of evolution in our past. Certainly, there is ample examination that the Bible's claims of historicity are just not true- no flood 4-5 thousand years ago, no Eden 6 thousand years ago, no exodus, no large 12-tribe Kingdom under David and Solomon.

    Yet there is still no solid evidence of God, nothing but testimony from the faithful that they "know" from personal revelation or answers to their prayers. That anecdotal evidence is from various belief systems and none of it is verifiable.

    On the flip side, science is still in it's infancy. Much of what they say will be discarded. The Big Bang is one of those explanations that currently seems to be the best overall explanation of the facts and evidence available. I think science will laugh at that one day and they will be on to another explanation when more facts are available. Similar with other things we are learning about the universe and life.

    Fortunately, I am free to look at "evidence" and form an opinion of my own. My "arguments" are not evidence, but I like them. Enjoy yours.

  • cognizant dissident
    cognizant dissident

    leavingwt

    Your outsider test was interesting to read. It was applying this test that ultimately led me to leave the WTBTS.

    I was born in and was always a nerdy, logical little kid, who solved logic problems in my spare time. I often did find the Bible and its teachings illogical, but fear of being beaten for impertinence kept me from saying what I thought throughout most of my childhood and teens. Apparently, physical survival trumps logic. ;-)

    The WTBTS successfully debunked every other religion in the world for me, but it's own shortcomings I put aside to wait upon Jehovah. Ironically, it was being called on by the Mormon's that ended up getting me to apply the outsiders test to my own religion.

    Two fresh faced, very sincere young Mormon girls called on me, and I took a book of Mormon from them for my reference library. I already was wanting to check those Watchtower references at the source. Well, they kept coming back and tried very hard to get me to study. I had quite a few logical debates with them. They reminded me of myself in my young pioneer days. So sincere and sweet, but deluded.

    I had to ask myself though, as a matter of intellectual honesty, if I had not been raised as a JW, and JW's had come to my door with their message, would I find it logical? Would the message itself convince me it was the truth from God? I had to admit, that in all likelihood, if my parents had not raised me JW, I would have thought it just as much hogwash as the Mormon religion. I would have done research into the origins. Why didn't I do that now? I had to admit the answer was fear. Fear of losing my family and my social group.

    Here I was, a grown, middle-aged woman, in university on a science scholarship, and I was afraid to ask certain honest sincere questions of certain people. The absurdity of that hit hard. I had to make a choice that I didn't want to live that way.

    If one applies that same type of critical thinking to the Bible as they do to the WTBTS and other religions, it MUST also fall. I've come to the conclusion that its also fear that prevents people from doing so. Fear of losing a cultural identity. Fear of dying. Fear of an unknown future. Fear that this really is all there is.

    Intellectual honesty is not for the faint of heart.

    Anais Nin said, "I've come to realize that when people demanded of me "the truth", what they really wanted was an illusion they could bear to live with".

  • digderidoo
    digderidoo

    Sorry BrotherDan, i missed it....

    All men are without excuse for disbelief in God. According to the bible. Hebrews 11 examines faith closely and says that it is our expectation of things hoped for based on evidence. 11:6 says that without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those that seek him.

    I've just read Hebrews 11 and nowhere does it say that faith is based on evidence.

    Paul

  • brotherdan
    brotherdan

    The evidence is in Romans 1.

  • beksbks
    beksbks

    I haven't read all of the comments. I thought about reading Dawkin's book, and Hitchen's book,........................but ultimately I had zero interest. I'm an athiest, and I don't care about, or need, the argument. I'm secure in my lack of belief.

  • digderidoo
    digderidoo

    I'm assuming BD that you're talking about v17? Living by faith?

    Following on from your point, if faith is based on evidence is it really faith at all?

    Paul

  • Liberty93
    Liberty93

    I have a question for the people who keep insisting that religions require faith - have any of you read anything by authors such as Aquinas or Nagarjuna, or anyone else who puts forward a wel-developed, well-reasoned defense of a religious system? You might disagree with them, but I don't see how it's reasonable to say that they require faith when they spend hundreds of pages supplying logical defenses of their beliefs.

  • cognizant dissident
    cognizant dissident

    Arguing with Brother Dan is starting to feel a bit like arguing with Aguest. How can one have a discussion about anything when one cannot even agree on definitions of words? How can one agree on definitions of words when the definitions keep changing to suit the arguments. Or when the only acceptable starting point is accepting the Christian religion as the only absolute moral standard to prove all things. Circular reasoning at its finest. Absolutely nothing to do with ration or logic, which, I believe was Dawkins entire point.

  • brotherdan
    brotherdan

    Nope. Talking about Romans 1:20.

  • cognizant dissident
    cognizant dissident

    I'm sure that Brother Dan has read them, as he has stated that he has reviewed ALL the available evidence on both sides which means he must have read every religious and scientific book ever written.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit