Secret military tribunals and historical precedent

by Seeker 32 Replies latest jw friends

  • Seeker
    Seeker

    The subject of secret military tribunals has been raised here in recent months, and I've made no secret of my displeasure at such moves. It was pointed out to me that President Lincoln also did this, something I was not aware of. However, I have recently read an article in the Feb. 2002 issue of The Atlantic Monthly that discusses the World War II precedent cited by Bush for these tribunals. It gives a step-by-step account of the would-be saboteurs and their subsequent secret trial and execution. Very interesting reading for those who are interested in learning more about the Roosevelt precendent that Bush cites.

    From this article, I learned some things:

    1. The Lincoln use of a secret military tribunal was against a citizen of Indiana who was outspoken in his criticism of the president. That figures. Lincoln got personal in this case. Interestingly, the Supreme Court found that the defendent should get a civil trial after all. So much for this precedent.

    2. The Roosevelt use of a secret military tribunal was due to Roosevelt's personal view that the 8 would-be saboteurs deserved death, and he was afraid that if they went to a civil trial they wouldn't be sentenced to death. In other words, a president got personal again. Nice to know that the old 'innocent until proven guilty in a court of law' idea got thrown right out the window. The president made it clear to the military judges hearing the case that only a death penalty was acceptable. There's justice for you...

    3. I say the 'would-be' saboteurs, because none of them did anything. It wasn't even clear that they intended to do anything. They were discovered, not due to crack police work, or nifty FBI investigative work, but because they turned themselves in! Before they did anything! So why the insistence on the death penalty. Two reasons: One, the FBI wanted to make it seem that they were the ones who cracked the case, but they wouldn't have been able to keep this deception up in a civil trial. Two, the president wanted to send a message to Germany that they could not get away with things. So the would-be saboteurs who turned themselves in rather than do anything, were killed. All but two who were given life sentences in exchange for their testimony.

    All of the above comes from presidential archives. The trials themselves, of course, were kept secret, so none of the facts could be known. As the president himself said, if this had gone to a civil trial, the men would not have been executed. He certainly didn't want that and, like Lincoln, went personal in a vindictive act. This time, however, and most unfortunately, the Supreme Court rolled over and didn't overturn this travesty of justice.

    And THAT is what the Bush administration points to for justification for setting up secret military tribunals today. We now know what Lincoln's motives were. We now know what Roosevelt's motives were. What we don't yet know, but will someday, is what Bush's motives were. In the past, it was to get personal, or to push through injustice. Perhaps the same will happen this time. One day, we will know.

    A very interesting article for anyone who would like to see the precedent Bush is using.

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Seeker: Setting aside motives for a minute, I thought that one of these Tribunals (Lincoln or Roosevelt) was ruled acceptable by the US Supreme Court, and the other was not. I have some mixed feelings about this. In our normal Constitutional sense, I prefer the open public criminal trial to any other kind. Here are some thoughts that maybe we might ponder back and forth:

    1. US Military Code of Justice (USMCJ) standards are very fair, and has a long standing tradition in the trial of US military personnel. The tribunals that Bush wants set up would be run along the lines of the USMCJ.

    2. Secrecy is a concern with reswpect to security. This prevents the Al Quaeda or its supporters from taking out revenge on Judges, Prosecutors, and Jurors. It also prevents sensitive information that could compromise anti-terrorism efforts from leaking out.

    3. In-spite of problems that are feared, the US runs a fair court system, even under the USMCJ.

    4. US Civilian courts are just as prone to error, corruption, and generally screwing things up.

    5. The Taliban and Al Quaeda people are not US Citizens and have no rights under US Civilian laws. They are prisoners of war, and there is plenty of case law on how war criminals are treated. At best, any USA trial must meet any provisions of the Geneva Convention that may apply. By using Military Tribunal the Taliban and Al Quaeda defendants are afforded fairness, certainly much better than they afforded to the women they shot in the back of the head for wearing cosmetics.

    As I said above, I have mixed feelings. I can see the value of giving these people the full benefit of US civilian courts system ... as a testament that our system is just and fair and works ... but at the same time, given other factors, I am not so sure.

    I hope that you get lots of comments on this thread, because I would like to form an opinion, if for no other reason, than to settle some of the anger I still feel at the attacks on the WTC and Pentagon.

    OR, we could set these Al Quaeda and Taliban people in front of a JW Judicial Committee! ... that would be most interesting!

    Thanks for bringing up a good issue. -

  • Seeker
    Seeker

    Amazing,

    I thought that one of these Tribunals (Lincoln or Roosevelt) was ruled acceptable by the US Supreme Court, and the other was not.
    Yes, that's what I implied in my post when I said the Supreme Court overturned Lincoln's wishes.

    As for military tribunals being fair, remember who they report to in their chain of command. If the Commander-in-Chief tells them that the defendents are to get the death penalty, as Roosevelt said, do you really think they are going to disobey him? Especially when the matter will be held in secret so no one will know about their travesty of justice? That's putting too much faith in their good nature, for my taste. Military men know on which side their bread is buttered. Especially military men.

    Secrecy to prevent revenge is not a factor because the first WTC terrorist trials went on in New York City civil courts just fine, no problems. So the second WTC terrorist trials could do the same.

    I like what you said about giving a testament to the world that our system is fair and just. We like to say that our constitutional rights should be granted to everyone who desires them. If we throw the constitution out the window when it suits us, it takes away from that message.

    Mostly, that article was interesting to me for it showed that Bush is basing a precedent on a case that was personal, threw 'innocent until proven guilty' out the window, and was designed to cover up failings in the intelligence community. That's an awful precedent. I hope nothing this tawdry is happening this time.

  • fodeja
    fodeja
    They are prisoners of war, and there is plenty of case law on how war criminals are treated.

    I thought they are not, and that the US government explicitly considers them merely "detainees", not POWs? Or am I mixing something up here?

    f., confused

  • Englishman
    Englishman

    Fodeja,

    You are correct, the detainees are not regarded as POW's at present.

    Englishman.

    ..From the scepter'd Isle kept free by 2 fins and 4 Merlins.

  • Lionel_P_Hartley
    Lionel_P_Hartley

    Amazing,

    They are prisoners of war, and there is plenty of case law on how war criminals are treated. At best, any USA trial must meet any provisions of the Geneva Convention that may apply
    That's not true - and indeed that is a point of considerable controversy. They are "battlefield detainees" and "unlawful combatants" or something like that. Here's an article that discusses it: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,636780,00.html

    and http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/world/dailynews/strike_main020112.html

  • Seeker
    Seeker

    After all, we are not officially at war in this "war" on terrorism that they say will go on for the next fifty years. Unless you want to consider drug dealers that get arrested POWs in the "war" on drugs.

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Linonel: Technically, you are correct, they are officially Detainees. I used the term POW, because these people are still being treated in the same fashion as POWs under the Geneva Convention. they have not been tortured, and are being afforded good and humane treatment. The USA is still trying to decide how to deal with them, because the situation is rather new to our legal system.

    Seeker: Assuming that Pres. Bush motive are to seek the death penalty, then I agree with your concerns. I am not sure of his motives, but I believe that security and flexibility are among these.

    Also, the fairness is governed by the USMCJ standards. So, even if Bush wanted the death penalty, the Military are not going to be pressured, as they still have the defense attorney to cry foul, and go public.

    The earlier trials you mention did go fine, but this was because the USA was only dealing with the defendants ... and not invading another country. Also, the trial was fairly recently completed ... so we don't know how any retaliation might go ...

    We are now dealing with the root core of terrorism ... including some of the Taliban and Al Quaeda leaders ... whereas the trail you mention dealt with expendable pawn of the terrorists network. Now, the situation may call for more revenge.

    Keep in mind I am undecided on this ... I have good confidence in the USMCJ standards ... but I also see problems could arise, or at least the appearance of impropriety ... so, this is going to be a real test for the USA as a whole.

  • Seeker
    Seeker

    Amazing,

    Also, the fairness is governed by the USMCJ standards. So, even if Bush wanted the death penalty, the Military are not going to be pressured, as they still have the defense attorney to cry foul, and go public.
    Read that Atlantic Monthly article if you can. In that World War II trial, there were defense lawyers assigned from the military, and they did an able job. Didn't make a difference, for the verdict was virtually fixed from the beginning. And since it was a secret trial, the defense lawyers weren't allowed to go public. That's the whole point of a secret trial.

    It was until the presidential archives were examined, decades later, that we got to find out about the details of this trial, and the miscarriage of justice that went on. Since Bush just gutted the Freedom of Information Act to make it impossible to get presidential papers unless the ex-president gives his permission, we may never get the chance to examine these new trial details. We are left with an implied, 'Trust us, we're the government.' Wouldn't you agree that this concept is un-American? That our country was founded on the principle that no governments could be trusted, but should be watched by the people?

    The earlier trials you mention did go fine, but this was because the USA was only dealing with the defendants ... and not invading another country.
    Are we worried about Afghanistan retaliating? Not really. No country is involved now, only terrorists and a religious group that was harboring them.

    I'm not trying to be contentious, Amazing, and I respect that you are raising valid questions. My responses are my opinions only, and I respect yours.

  • Lionel_P_Hartley
    Lionel_P_Hartley

    Amazing,

    It's hardly a question of being "technically correct" when that very distinction is a huge issue with civil rights organizations and is threatening to sour relations between the US and UK somewhat. Further, it is not clear that they are being accorded the same rights under the Geneva convention as are POWs. For example, are they accorded the right to give only name, rank and serial number as are POWs?

    Thus, to say I'm "technically correct" is really just a way of admitting that you were somewhat more than "technically incorrect", no? :-)

    LPH

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