Resurrection...to where???

by lv4fer 22 Replies latest jw friends

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    Hi, there is another scripture about the new earth in 2 Peter 3:13

    Sorry, please don't take this the wrong way, but the whole concept of the resurrection is the central theme of the NT, the GOSPEL, Which is what the apostles preached as the good news! Don't dispair, if you believe the bible is the word of God, there is hope. The hope Jesus gave you is for all who believe in their HEART. Not what religion or church they go to.

    anyway if you're interested
    How accurate is this belief?

    A DIALOGUE with a WITNESS about the RESURRECTION.

    The Bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ is an essential truth of the Christian faith. Because our Lord rose bodily from the dead, we know that His sacrifice fully paid for our sins and that our own bodily resurrection is certain. The resurrected Christ told His disciples, “See My hands and My feet, that it is I myself; handle Me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have (Luke 24:39).
    Jesus made it clear that He was not a spirit creature. His resurrected body was the same body that had been nailed to the cross.
    JW’s claim they believe in the resurrection of Jesus. The truth, as the following dialogue demonstrates, is that they deny this central Bible teaching.

    Christian: Do you believe in the resurrection?
    JW: Why, of course, I do. The Bible teaches it, and we certainly believe the Bible.
    C: I’m glad to know that. It gives us an authority. If you believe it, and we believe it, then we can refer to it during our discussion.
    JW: Not every so-called Christian accepts the bible today. In fact, JW’s lead the way today in accepting it as the Word of God.
    C: To get back to the resurrection – I read in your Let God Be True book (1952) that some people after Jesus’ death tried to “thwart the Son of God’s coming forth from the grave.” (p. 273-274)
    JW: That’s true. They were the religious leaders of that day, too.
    C: I take it then that you believe He did come from the grave?
    JW: He certainly did. The resurrection is a foundation stone of the Bible.
    C: When you speak of the “he” coming forth from the grave, do you mean Jesus?
    JW: Of course. That’s a strange question, especially since I just said I believe he came out.
    C: Please forgive me if I seem to be working over this too much. But it’s a terribly important point. Do you agree with Paul that if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile? (1 Cor. 15:17) [entire chapter discusses difference between flesh & spirit.
    JW: Of course.
    C: Now when Christ rose from the grave as you said you believe, did His body rise?
    JW: Oh no. His body didn’t rise. We don’t know what happened to his body. Likely Jehovah dissolved it into gases…maybe He even hid it. But it didn’t rise.
    C: Well, if Jesus’ body didn’t rise, was it His soul that rose from the grave?
    JW: Of course not. The soul and the body are the same thing. There is no soul separate and distinct from the body. It tells us that in our Make Sure Of All Things (1953, p. 349)
    C: Please bear with me if I seem to be a bit in a fog. You say you believe Jesus rose, yet you don’t believe His body or His soul rose. Then you must believe His spirit rose. Do you not?
    JW: His spirit was just his breath. It didn’t rise!
    C: If neither His body, soul, or spirit rose – WHAT did?
    JW: Why, he did.
    C: What was the HE? Is there a part of us that isn’t body, soul, or spirit?
    JW: No, I guess not. Actually he didn’t rise, he was re-created a spirit.
    C: But I thought you said you believed in the resurrection.
    JW: I do. Jesus was re-created.
    C: But re-creation isn’t resurrection.
    JW: Of course, it is. God holds you in his memory. Then he creates someone with your life pattern.
    C: Then it isn’t you that rises – I’m sorry, that is re-created. It’s your identical twin, clone.
    JW: Oh no, it’s YOU.
    C: Well, was it Jesus who rose?
    JW: The man Jesus is buried forever. Christ is now a glorious spirit in heaven.
    C: Then you don’t believe Jesus rose. You don’t believe in the resurrection at all. Why did Jesus show His body to Thomas?
    JW: He just assumed a body so the disciples would believe in his resurrection.
    C: You mean He assumed a body with nail prints in the hands and feet to convince the disciples that it was the same body, therefore the same Jesus?
    JW: Well, yes, I guess so.
    C: Then you really believe Jesus was a deceiver – to assume a body which didn’t exist to prove He rose when He didn’t!
    JW Our books teach us that. Our books are always true.
    C: Now I have a few questions for you. First, your books say that religious men tried to thwart the Son of God’s coming forth from the grave. Now if nothing come from the grave anyway as you teach, what were they trying to thwart?
    JW: I never thought of that.
    C: Your Let God Be True book also says that the resurrection is “no illusion or imagined thing” (p. 273). In other words, your book means to say that the resurrection actually happened. No one just imagined it. Yet you admit that it didn’t take place at all. Which would make it an illusion!
    JW: An illusion?
    C: Yes. Your Let god Be True book also says that Satan and his demons tried to obscure the true meaning of the resurrection by teaching that the resurrection was only in a spiritual sense (p. 274). Yet you teach that Jesus’ resurrection did not really take place. It was a spiritual resurrection! Now what kind of double talk is your book using?
    JW: There must be an answer. I will write the Watch Tower.
    C: Why write them? You have in your books what they teach. Now another question. Your book talks about the grave being emptied (Let God Be True, p. 282). If nothing comes out of the grave, why do you talk about the grave being emptied?
    JW: That’s what the Bible says.
    C: I know. It says people will come out of their graves. The graves will be opened because according to Bible resurrection the body rises! When Lazarus was raised from the dead, did his body rise?
    JW: I guess it did.
    C: When the widow’s son was raised, did his body rise?
    JW: Yes.
    C: In every resurrection in the Bible the body rose, didn’t it? And when Jesus spoke of His own death as a resurrection, He said, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up (John 2:19). He spoke of the temple of His BODY (John 2:21). How much clearer could the bible be?
    JW: But Watch Tower says he didn’t rise. How can I tell what is truth?
    C: Follow the bible. Search the Scriptures. You have let men tell you what to believe instead of believing the bible. And you have gone further. You claim to believe the bible while you reject the simplest thing it teaches. And remember, the bible says, If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins (1 Cor. 15:17).

  • lv4fer
    lv4fer

    OK Willpower. That was great. So what your saying is we will be raised up a physical body? To where? Heaven or Earth. Not that I really care as long as I'm resurrected. I'm sure I will be happy no matter where I'm resurrected. I will be happy just to know I was counted worthy of resurrection. I'm just trying to figure out the whole resurrection thing. 144,000? to heaven, Great Crowd? on earth. Spirit to heaven then back down on the new earth? I just want some scriptures to tell me where it says that If I die today and I'm counted worthy of resurrection and if JW's are correct and Im not of the annointed where do they get that I'm going to be resurrected here on the earth. Or if someone has another idea with scriptures to back it up I'd be willing to listen.

  • DakotaRed
    DakotaRed

    To me, Matthew 5:5 says it all. The meek shall inherit the earth.

    If God's Spirit is filling a Kingdom Hall, how is it that Satan can manuever the ones within that Kingdom Hall at the same time?

  • lv4fer
    lv4fer

    Yes I realize that but what about the resurrection. In the NT you can't deny the fact it talks about a resurrection to heaven. Who is going there? Where are you going to be while Jehovah creates the new earth? On the old one and then he is going to put you on the new one?

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    You see that Satan's idea of resurrection is familiar.
    Right off the bat this should make you think about anything you were taught to believe. Everything now must be investigated. I suggest, prayer, and read the bible [alone of course] If you really & truly believe it is the word of God and sincerely ask for guidance, you will see for yourself what the NT has to say.

    Here are a few other points you might want to consider.
    Do you believe that Jesus is the Christ?
    Have you been born again?
    If you are of the earthly class, [WT teaching] your answer will be no.
    1 John 5-1 states that everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ, has been born from God.
    Can the heavenly class, whom they teach are the only ones having been born again, believe that Jesus is the Christ anymore than the earthly class can or do?

    Romans 8: 1-14 Paul is distinguishing two classes of people
    1) those led or controlled of the spirit
    2) those of the flesh
    To which of these 2 groups do you belong to or come under?
    Are you led by the Spirit?
    Bearing in mind that the WT teaches that only the 144,000 are now the sons of God, in Rom ver 14 "Where as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are "the sons of God. Vs 9 If any man does not possess this spirit, then he is none of His.
    If led by the spirit, they are no longer under the law Gal 5:18
    If not of the spirit you must be under the curse of the law.

    John 3:3 in the NWT states that unless "anyone" is born again" (not just 144,000, but anyone) he cannot see the Kingdom of God.
    This word here for SEE in the Gk is EIDON and means to mentally perceive, or understand. It does not refer to physical sight, but rather mental awareness. So, until anyone is born again, [put on his new clothes]as this verse states, he is unable to perceive or understand the things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. WT teaches this experience is for 144,000 only yet you are the one who decides this.

    IMPORTANT thing is not the "NEW EARTH" but rather the NEW BIRTH
    Salvation & eternal life whatever it might be is NOT found in or thru any organization, but rather thru your mediator, Jesus Christ. John 14:6, 1 Tim 2:5

    ONE HOPE, NO CLASS SYSTEM, SAVED BY FAITH THAT WORKS, NOT FAITH AND WORKS.

    What Jesus condemned the Parissees for, is exactly what the JW is doing. Rather than coming directly to Jesus Christ as the scriptures says to do, they go to WT for it.
    John 5: 39-40 You are searching the scriptures, because you think that by means of them you will have everlasting life, and these are the very ones that bear witness about me, and yet you do not come to me that you may have life.

    ((((((HUGS)))))))))

  • Adonai438
    Adonai438

    Will power leaves you with a very good and thought provoking dialogue.
    I assume from the way you write that you are a active JW?
    My turn to ramble
    Just a general over view of what the Bible says about People & afterlife:
    *People are created with 3 parts- Body, soul & spirit- These are mentioned together in 1st Thess.5:23.

    *The body is separate from the soul- ‘soul’ is used to denote the whole person but is also a separate part of a person.--Body and soul can be separated and are both perishable- can die: (Matt.10:28)

    *The Spirit is separate from the soul and can be divided (Heb4:12)

    *The soul leaves at death(1 Kings 17:21-22)
    (and returns at resurrection)

    *The spirit leaves at death(Luke 23:46 & Acts 7:59)

    *The Righteous upon death go to be with the Lord (their soul & spirit)(2 Cor.5:1-10, Phil.1:21-24, Lk 23:43)

    *The wicked at death go to Hades commonly translated Hell. This is the physical grave and an agonizing spiritual separation from God awaiting their judgement. Portrayed in Luke 16 with Lazarus and the rich man. Some say this is only a parable but this is very unlikely since Jesus never suggested it was a parable as he usually explained them after he was done and he never used any peoples names in his parables. Even if it is a parable, Jesus would be illustrating a truth about hell.
    *Dead wicked conscious in hell in a few more places is also in Isa. 14:9-11 and 1 Peter 3:19-22

    *Hades is not the final destination for the souls & spirits of the wicked because at the end of time when they are resurrected in the 2 resurrection and judged before the throne of Christ they will be thrown into the lake of fire, Gehenna. This is their final destination which is concious and eternal-
    A study of Matt.25:41-46 says that their torment will be eternal
    And Rev. 19 & 20 illustrates it plainly: Rev. 19:20 - The Lake of Fire- Gehenna- is where the Beast/AntiChrist and False Prophet are thrown after the battle of Armageddon. The 1000yr reign of Christ takes place and then in Rev.20:10 Satan is thrown in after his final defeat and it describes it as the beast and false prophet still being there and they together will be tortured day and night forever. This is the same Lake of Fire that the wicked are cast into after judgement- no reason to think the wicked's punishment won't last forever when it's the same place.

    *End times details are lengthy but the short of it is the righteous will be resurrected and glorified and go to heaven -this is called the rapture of 1 Thess.4:13-18-
    A period called the tribulation will occur on earth where the judgements of Revelation will be poured out on the earth.
    After this time Jesus will return to earth and battle with satan and his earthly followers and has an angel lock Satan in the abyss for 1000yrs. God will cleanse the earth and their will be a millenial kingdom for 1000yrs. All Christians will rule this kingdom with Christ on earth. At this time the earths population that is 'ruled over' is comprised of survivors of the tribulation- some saved, some not and their lives will be lengthened and they will continue having families. (The glorified & resurect do not continue having children)
    At the end of the 1000yrs Satan will be allowed out briefly to decieve any of these that will listen in one last war against God.
    God will consume the evil mortals with fire and Satan will be thrown into the Lake of Fire where he will spend eternity. There is the new heavens and the new earth, Judgement occurs for the wicked and those saved since the rapture, and finally the New Jerusalem will descend from heaven to earth and God's dwelling will be with man again (like it was in the garden of eden).
    OK wake up now
    More than you wanted I bet
    I can provide more scriptur proof but figured I had rambled enough.
    <><
    Angie

  • ISP
    ISP

    Ressurrection according to the WTS is to the earth. So I'll be amazed if that's right!

    ISP

  • lv4fer
    lv4fer

    You guys/gals are real helpful. A lot of good info I will have to look up in the scriptures. You are correct. I am a witness, but I recently in the last year have started researching things that I have doubted and or not really understood. The Truth will set you free!...I may have to set myself free from the WT. easier said then done though. So I think the consensus is that no one can prove a resurrection to the earth. Is that correct?

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    You have many options here.
    Read, read, read,
    and pray if you can
    but
    YOU DECIDE!

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy

    lv4fer

    Hi there

    I can't remember exactly where they are right now, i'll find out later, but anyway i remember there were some scriptures use to indicate that the new heveans and the new earth is simply saying new in the since the earth will be under a new divine rulership and the physical earth will be made new again and you can imagine how long that will take.

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