by leavingwt 61 Replies latest jw friends
Renia-Bator:
Hi deputy Dog
Romans 9:16 is part of Paul's inspired words concerning the inclusion of the gentiles as God's people to partake of his mercy/undedeserved kindness by faith in the one true God Jehovah. It not advocating spining off into all different divisive directions of belief to different Gods and somehow still being acceptable.
My reply: Then plase substanitate Biblically where the only acceptable path is uniformity of beliefs, through let's say- an organization.
However R-Bator, a verse that the WT uses to try to demand uniformity of belief and unquestioned obedience actually shows the issue where unity is needed:
1 Corinthians 1
10I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas [a] "; still another, "I follow Christ."
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into [b] the name of Paul? 14 I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
The issue is not that others had a variety of beliefs but in who they followed- that being Christ, not Apollos, Cephus, etc. Paul was telling them to put aside these differences and unite in the name of Christ- not to be uniform in their beliefs.
LOL
God help Jesus if my Dad and debator find themselves at the Pearly Gates and heaven's full of Catholics.
It's not really that complicated, God KNOWS, Jesus KNOWS, who are theirs, it falls on NO ONE else to know or judge.
Fact is, many will die not knowing the true glory of God the lives in Christ, many will die knowing a false message and many will die so scarred by false prohets and false "Christs" ( Ie: annointed ones) that they want NOTHING to do with God.
God knows this and in Gods infinite love that flows from Christ, whom we are witnesses to as per Acts, will redeem all and forgive all those that are willing to be redeemed and willing to be forgiven. God and Jesus know, they've always know and ALL will have a chance to knwo them, if not in life then at the ressurection.
Elgiard:
Jesus is way bigger than just Jesus the man, whom the apostles knew, and whose story we know from the Gospels. Jesus valued love and forgiveness and mercy.
I also believe that someone can accept the real Jesus without ever knowing Jesus the man.
Very interesting. Thank you.
agonus:
But seriously, if there is a Heaven, I'm sure Christ knows his real buddies regardless of denomination.
It would be difficult to argue with that, unless we resort to litmus tests.
designs:
If you want to complicate it go knock your socks off
I would prefer to keep it simply, myself. I hear you.
Deputy Dog:
I believe God gives saving faith to whoever he chooses.
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'll ask a specific question: If a person is given saving faith by God, would he or she remain in the WT organization?
issacaustin:
The issue is not that others had a variety of beliefs but in who they followed- that being Christ, not Apollos, Cephus, etc. Paul was telling them to put aside these differences and unite in the name of Christ- not to be uniform in their beliefs.
Interesting. Thank you.
Black Sheep:
God help Jesus if my Dad and debator find themselves at the Pearly Gates and heaven's full of Catholics.
I would pay good money to see that scene.
PSacramento:
God knows this and in Gods infinite love that flows from Christ, whom we are witnesses to as per Acts, will redeem all and forgive all those that are willing to be redeemed and willing to be forgiven. God and Jesus know, they've always know and ALL will have a chance to knwo them, if not in life then at the ressurection.
In other words, only those who really have a desire to do bad will miss out on Heaven?
Psacramento
I agree wih your first sentence in principle but your next two suggest a lack of freewill on humanity bordering towards calvanism where what we believe is irrelevent and we are prechosen.
How do we show ourselves willing to be redeemed or forgiven? We come the bibles warnings of the "time of the end" when the "love of the greater cools off" and we ask ourselves what makes you a part of the group that doesn't get cut off and Jesus said it plainly...
John 17:1-3 NWT
1 Jesus spoke these things, and, raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you, 2 according as you have given him authority over all flesh, that, as regards the whole [number] whom you have given him, he may give them everlasting life. 3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.</form>Hi blacksheep
I hope to be in paradise on earth!
Hi Isaac
When the world was fractured by belief in allsorts of gods and goddesses worshiped in so many differing ways, driven by the wants and desires of the men who created them. Jehovah gave us his bible his word that led to recognition of his son and his revelation of God's purpose and salvation for us. That is the point! the bible to reveals to us to the "truth".
John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
2 John 1:4
It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us.
There can only be one truth that is the nature of truth.
-bator:
John 17:1-3 NWT
</form> 1 Jesus spoke these things, and, raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you, 2 according as you have given him authority over all flesh, that, as regards the whole [number] whom you have given him, he may give them everlasting life. 3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.</form>My reply: ..."that they may know you.."...its knowing Jesus..not an endless taking in of WT crap.
-Bator:
Hi Isaac
When the world was fractured by belief in allsorts of gods and goddesses worshiped in so many differing ways, driven by the wants and desires of the men who created them. Jehovah gave us his bible his word that led to recognition of his son and his revelation of God's purpose and salvation for us. That is the point! the bible to reveals to us to the "truth".
John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
My reply: Speaking of salvation coming to all, the sending of the Helper and being led by it
-Bator:
2 John 1:4
It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us.
There can only be one truth that is the nature of truth.
My reply: And that is defined by Jesus- John 14:6- the way, the truth, the life....not a regimented uniformity of belifs system as the WT has created.
In other words, only those who really have a desire to do bad will miss out on Heaven?
The choice will be give to all, the choice, as always, is theirs.
Love can never be forced on anyone.
For some "Tis better to rule in hell than to serve in Heaven".
Of course God knows already those that will choose but God nevertheless leaves the option open for Us all.
Psacramento
I agree wih your first sentence in principle but your next two suggest a lack of freewill on humanity bordering towards calvanism where what we believe is irrelevent and we are prechosen.
How do we show ourselves willing to be redeemed or forgiven?
I do NOT belive in predestination for all, though I do think that some of us are pre-chosen for specific tasks and gifts.
I am not sure where you got that from my post though...
The point of it was that ALL will have to choice to make, whether in Life at death or at the ressurection, it comes at different times to different people, but it will come to all.
At that point there will be NO doubt, for all will be revealed in its Glory, God and His Beloved Son, will judge and all will have to decide.
God gave us this amazing gift of Grace through his Son, our Lord and saviour, the ONLY annointed One of God, Jesus.
It is through this gift, this grace, that we find salvation, but like any other gift that is given, it must be received.
I once spent a long morning discussing my faith with two elderly JW ladies, all to no avail. When they left I asked the Lord what to make of it all. He told me to read 1 Peter 2. The answer came loud and clear and I think it will help here.
9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
JWs reject Jesus, especially every "Memorial". To us who believe, Jesus is precious, but to JWs "Jehovah" is.
Jesus will be their capstone and is THE thing which causes them to stumble. "They stumble because they disobey the message" (see John 6:53-54 for example) "which is also what they were destined for".
I do not think that all JWs are predestined to stumble but at some point their eyes will open and it will be time to stop disobeying the commands of Jesus.
Blessings,
Stephen
