@djeggnog wrote:
I think it rather strange that you would be quoting from any WTS publication, even from the NWT Bible, to someone that is actively one of Jehovah's Witnesses, which suggests that you are one of those that Jehovah cleaned up from your filth, stripping away your Philistine pride, removing the bloodstained things from your mouth and the disgusting things from between your teeth so that you were once a sheik in Judah (Zechariah 9:7) But you have since returned to your Philistine ways and think that my God, Jehovah God, recognized you as a worshipper of His, totally deluding yourself in believing you fooled the true God. Sure, you had some fooled, but you would be a fool to think that you managed to fool Jehovah.
@Vanderhoven7 wrote:
How does pointing out that your religion is not biblical make one a Philistine DJ? I assure you that the only one deluding himself, is you. I was never a JW. You obviously did not see or pay attention to my video on your organization's mythological foundations....
Until I read this last message of yours, I had assumed that you were formerly one of Jehovah's Witnesses. In view of the fact that you were never one of Jehovah's Witnesses, none of my remarks here -- especially what I said about your having been cleaned up and having had stripped away his Philistine pride -- cannot resonate with you since you haven't studied the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses, you haven't made a dedication to Jehovah to do His will and been baptized. I have no interest in watching a video since I am here talking to you and it is not possible for me to have a discussion with a video.
@djeggnog wrote:
What things you read in the Bible and what things are quoted from the Bible in WTS publications are sacred things, and if I know that you are one not having appreciation for sacred things, why would you expect any worshipper of the true God to listen to you quote scriptures?
@Vanderhoven7 wrote:
How can "truth" in WTS publications, now recognized as error, be sacred? You worship men DJ and the fact that you identify and treat former "truth" which is really error, as sacred, proves this. You vindicate men, not God and His Word.
What is there about Bible truth that is now recognized as error? When I stated that "what things are quoted from the Bible in WTS publications are sacred things," I was referring to Bible truth. I wasn't talking about the commentary you find in WTS publications that are essentially miniature sermons that are designed to help the reader to comprehend Bible truth and suggesting that what Jehovah's Witnesses say in these publications are sacred. Jesus stated at John 17:17: "Your word is truth," and apart from what we read in the Bible, there is no other "truth."
@djeggnog wrote:
The NWT and all of the WTS publications that are dedicated to Jehovah, which you now trample upon underfoot with contempt[,] belong to Jehovah. (Matthew 7:6)
@Vanderhoven7 wrote:
I quoted your literature and informed you that your religion, as promoted in your literature, is not biblical. The WTS therefore is in contempt of Jehovah. Adding to the word of God has oft proven Jehovah's Witnesses liars.
It is your choice to decide whether or not Jehovah's Witnesses are promoting true worship that is based on the Bible. It is up to you to decide if Jehovah's Witnesses have added to the word of God. If you should conclude or have already concluded that Jehovah's Witnesses are not promoting true worship and that we have sought to add anything at all to the Bible, then I have no problem accepting this as being your choice. Jehovah's Witnesses do not measure success by their numbers; Jesus foretold at Matthew 9:37 that the harvest would be great, but that there would be very few workers involved in the harvest work to be done.
While the harvest work began on Pentecost when the holy spirit was first poured out upon Jesus' disciples, which spirit sealed them in their foreheads as slaves of the living God, the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, but according to Jesus' own words at Matthew 13:39, the harvest to which Jesus was referring at Matthew 9:37 "is a conclusion of a system of things," which indicated that this harvest work that began back in 33 AD would continue until our own day.
At Revelation 7:1-3, "four angels" are seen "holding tight the four winds of the earth," and these four angels are there given a command by the angel that already had "the seal of the living God" upon his forehead, evidently the archangel Michael, who has authority over these "four angels," to not unleash the four winds that they were holding back until after these anointed ones, these "slaves of our God," had finally been "sealed ... in their foreheads" as spiritual Israelites. It is after these "firstfruits" have all been harvested that the ingathering of the great crowd will come to an end and this harvesting work will have come to a close.
@Vanderhoven7 wrote:
But aren't you advised to hate apostates and have nothing to do with them aside from what is necessary?
@djeggnog wrote:
No, but Jehovah's Witnesses are generally advised to keep their distance from apostates, since they typically will have learned everything that most Jehovah's Witnesses know from having studied the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses, except, lacking humility, they have failed to obtain more than a cursory knowledge of the true God. It can take 20, 30, even 40 years to become "solid in the faith," for only those, who have taken up "the large shield of faith," that [will be] are able to withstand, even quench, any missile launched by God's enemies. (1 Peter 5:9; Ephesians 6:16)
@Vanderhoven7 wrote:
The WTS likes to paint all with the same brush. They can't imagine that some have simply realized that the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses is not biblical and requires that one put faith in men which is contrary to God's word. Ps.118:9, 146:3
What I wrote in my previous post wouldn't really apply to you, since only those that have studied the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses, dedicated themselves to God and submitted to water baptism in symbol of such dedication are classified as apostates, when those who have "once for all been enlightened ... fallen away." (Hebrews 6:4-6) The words I quoted above from your last post are very pertinent to my response in this post:
I was never a JW.
I didn't know about your video, I have never viewed it, and I do not plan to watch it (although it may be a great video), since your being against Jehovah's Witnesses wouldn't make you an apostate.
You wrote:
My faith is in God and His word; yours on the contrary, is in men and their words; it's that simple DJ.
You may be putting your faith in God, but your knowledge of the true God is incomplete, so you cannot know God, and neither does God know you. (Galatians 4:9) You are in the same position as was that Samaritan woman to whom Jesus spoke at John 4:22, when he told her that "You worship what you do not know." Jesus goes on to say at John 4:23, that "the true worshippers" of God would be those that be worshipping "the Father with spirit and truth," for God is "looking for suchlike ones to worship him." Contrary to what you may believe to be the case, your faith is not in God and His word.
It is "the weak and beggarly elementary things" of this world that Christians have left behind in order to serve God, such as involvement in political campaigns hoping that through the efforts of selfish imperfect men and women a better government will emerge, or the pursuit of material prosperity or the pursuit of prominence at one's job or in some other endeavor, or the pursuit of pleasure and entertainment. At Matthew 19:27, the apostle Peter told Jesus: "We have left all things and followed you." To serve God, a Christian must leave these all such "weak and beggarly elementary things" behind.
This is why Jesus stated at Mark 7:7, in quoting Isaiah 29:13 ("their fear toward me becomes men’s commandment that is being taught"), that it is in vain that such people are worshipping God for in reality, what they are doing is putting their faith in the commands of men "as doctrines." (Mark 7:7) Jehovah's Witnesses are not putting their faith in men or in men's words, but they are putting their faith in the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ and in the infallible word of God.
Again, you cannot be putting your faith in God if you do not know God, and if you have not dedicated yourself to God, then He doesn't know you, for "Jehovah knows those who belong to him." (2 Timothy 2:19) Truly if anyone wants to serve God and to do His will, then one only need examine what things Jehovah's Witnesses are teaching to determine whether or not what we teach comes from God's word. (John 7:17) Case in point, the explanation I provided you here regarding Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus. You will only find this explanation being taught by Jehovah's Witnesses. There are many things that you do not know, but it could truly be of benefit to you were to you consider (and have!) a Bible study with one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Does WTS "truth" change so often that you or I cannot quote yesterday's Awake? What you have written, you have written. Take [responsibility] for it. I say you, because you promote whatever is being taught or changed....and therefore share the guilt of your leaders.
I take responsibility for everything that Jehovah's Witnesses are teaching others. If the information in yesterday's Watchtower or Awake! magazine should be accurate today, I will quote from it, but if it isn't accurate, I will still quote from it, while pointing out the inaccuracies since we cannot know in advance that something written yesterday will need to be revised tomorrow.
Many computer users today have forgotten that, during the pre-broadband age, computer users were using 300 baud, 2400 baud, 9600 baud and 14,400 baud modems to communicate with other computers users on bulletin boards and on the internet, that is, until the 28,800 and 33,600 and 56,000 kbps modems came along. Many former issues of PC Magazine and PC World once recommended the installation of these "speedy" 14,400 internal modems over external modems, but obviously some of the information that these back issues contained is no longer up-to-date, so why should these computer magazines continue to defend the things they formerly printed regarding 14,400 modems, whether internal or external, when the world has moved on to broadband, cable and T1 connections?
Before February 18, 1930, the world taught that there were eight planets, and for almost 80 years, after recognizing Clyde Tombaugh's discovery of Pluto as a planet, school students were being taught that there were nine planets, but after the IAU vote on August 24, 2006, the prevailing belief today is that there are eight planets. There may have been things contained in science books published before August 24, 2006, that were still up-to-date, but until those books were replaced in classroom, science teachers would likely have explained to their students that the information regarding Pluto being one of nine planets was no longer accurate.
This change, mind you, didn't affect the credibility of science teachers. However, any science teacher in 2010 to be teaching his or her students that there are nine planets in our solar system and that Pluto is one of them after the IAU vote declared Pluto to be, not a planet, but a drawf planet would likely be career-ending for that science teacher. Those companies that produced science textbooks for school classrooms regarding a ninth planet cannot be held responsible for what things they wrote before the IAU vote, but only for the things they write after the vote.
Bible truth doesn't change and because Jehovah's Witnesses endeavor to teach Bible truth, we quickly abandon any previous understanding we may have had when we come to realize our previous understanding to have been in error. It is not the Bible that is in error, mind you, for God's word is infallible, but us, because Jehovah's Witnesses are not infallible, and we refuse to take a wrong position and be resistant to changing that wrong position when it becomes clear that our former understanding of a particular matter was incorrect. Jehovah's Witnesses are being led by holy spirit, and essentially what this means is that when we read something in the Bible, which things were inspired by God's holy spirit, we follow the conclusion all of the scriptures that we're considering leads us. When we do this, we are thereby being led by holy spirit. Understand?
Now what happens should we later on, upon reading another scripture, we come to realize that the conclusion we had reached in the past was not the correct conclusion to which we were being led by God's word? Jehovah's Witnesses will then immediately abandon that wrong conclusion and follow the conclusion to which all of the scriptures that we're now considering leads us. This is what it means to be led by holy spirit.
The inclusion of such changes in our publications makes sense, since we can only be held responsible for the things we write after we became aware of our error, and not for what things we wrote before we became aware of our error. This is again what it means to be led by holy spirit. We will not resist the holy spirit by becoming stoic in our bearing and teaching, and refuse to change our position on a matter if we are allowing ourselves to be led by holy spirit.
Now not one of Jehovah's Witnesses is miraculously zapped with a special knowledge of the Bible, for those gifts of the spirit ceased with the death of Jesus' apostles during the first century AD, and often it is only in hindsight that we are able to discern the meaning of certain scriptures, but what things Jehovah's Witnesses teach others are based solidly on what the Bible says, and not on what we might want it to say.
The fact that you keep changing your unique dogmas illustrates that your religion is not biblical and cannot be trusted. Biblical truth does not change. So your religion which frequently changes, even reversing it's teachings 180 degrees and later reverting back to former positions, just illustrates that Jehovah's Witnesses are ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth. (2Tim.3:7)
Actually, no, but I understand that this is your view of my religion, and I accept this, but what I cannot accept is your appropriation and perversion of the apostle Paul's words at 2 Timothy 3:7, for, in context, the ones about whom Paul was speaking were men that only had "a form of godly devotion," who were "disapproved as regards the faith," and who were resisting the truth, in that they had exploited their positions in God's household by working their way into households and making those yet weak in faith their captives, so that they were "always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth." (2 Timothy 3:2-8) You twisted Paul's words at 2 Timothy 3:7, which obscures the fact that those "never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth" were the ones that such "wicked men and imposters" were misleading. (2 Timothy 3:13)
@djeggnog wrote:
I noticed that you quoted something you read in a 1952 issue of the Watchtower, but you would be incompetent to think that Jehovah's Witnesses today are being taught according to what was being taught in 1952 or 1920 or even 1879. While there are some who would have been disfellowshipped for apostasy in those years, those taking the lead in God's organization have now learned to take up God's view on the matter, and so elders today are not only distinguishing between those with legitimate questions and concerns, and those who seek to make trouble for Jehovah's Witnesses with a view to perverting the good news about the Christ. (Galatians 1:7)
@Vanderhoven7 wrote:
Actually, it is the Watchtower Society that is perverting the good news by preaching a gospel Paul never heard of... based only on the speculations and imaginations of men. (Gal. 1:7-9; I Cor.15:1-4)
Ok.
@djeggnog
