Yet another post-JW epiphany: The Absurdity of "SERIOUS SIN".

by Open mind 48 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • miseryloveselders

    Hey Gary, good point bringing up David. I usually use him as the litmus test when I feel people are too hard on themselves. Another side of me has to admit though, if he wasn't the king, and he was just Joe Shmoe Israelite, he would have been put to death. The victors and friends of the victors write history.

    We are talking about the elect here. The TRUE Christian. Not someone that just professes to be a Christian and uses it as an excuse to sin. Those people show by their actions that they never were saved. Can a Christian sin severely or as you say "heinously"? Possibly. But when you are full of the Holy Spirit and you let Him guide your life you are far less likely to commit such a sin. Like Paul said in Romans 6:2, we died to sin.We don't let it lead us anymore.

    But keep in mind, this is describing the saved Christian. It's describing the Christian that asked for faith and salvation through Jesus Christ. These are the ones that were chosen from before the founding of the world. Notice Eph 1:4 - For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love.

    Hey BrotherDan, just wanted to say, don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing with you for the sake of arguing. I'm glad to be having this discussion with you. I just fail to see the how your interpretation of Grace is really all that different from one's interpretation of Works. For instance you say that those professing to be Christian show their true colors by their actions. A Christian who is full of the Holy Spirit is far less likely to commit a heinous sin. Paul said in Romans as you quoted that Christians directed by Spirit died to sin. It doesn't lead them anymore.

    You used the phrase, "less likely", so it is possible for one commit a heinous act. This "less likely" also indicates to me some work on the part of the saved Christian is necessarry. For instance, if you exercise and eat properly, you're less likely to get sick. If you pay attention to spending, and your budget, you're less likely to overdraw from your checking account and be penalized. When thinking about it in those terms, I think of Zeph 2:3 where it says, "perhaps you will be sheltered on the day of the Lord's anger" The NWT puts it, "probably you may be concealed in the day of Jehovah's anger." Granted we're talking preChristian, but as Gary brought up there were preChristian ones who got a pass despite their otherwise unrighteous activity.(Grace) Another aspect of it is 1 Cor 5, where Paul writes to Christians in Corinth who have a serious moral issue in their congregation involving a particular individual. By that Christian's "actions", or "works" he was bringing a bad name upon Christianity and the congregation. Why would it be necessarry to rebuke this one if Grace as you define it is there for this saved Christian? Why does this one need to be tossed out of the congregation?

    I'm getting ready to dip out, gotta catch the bus. I'll catch up with you tonight or tommorrow. If I don't talk to you tonight, have a good night all.

  • sherah

    marking for later

  • brotherdan

    I guess I'm not explaining it correctly, because it is very different from the JW way of teaching. If you read the speeches by Macarthur that I sent you, you will see how different it really is.

  • Farkel

    :just a little brain fart I had today while enjoying a guilt-free cup of coffee

    Ahem. "Drinking coffee without feeling guilt is a serious sin", 1st Mormon 15:27.

    You will fry for all of eternity in a boiling pot of Folgers, the nastiest coffee-from-hell ever sold.


  • garyneal
    Another side of me has to admit though, if he wasn't the king, and he was just Joe Shmoe Israelite, he would have been put to death.

    Funny, I was thinking the same thing as I was typing that post. Never-the-less the Bible is full of imperfect men who did things that are less than stellar and yet they were considered righteous or at least forgiven.

  • Open mind
    Open mind

    Wow. I'm just about out of popcorn.

    This has been an informative read. Thanks to all.

    And to Mr. Farkel, thank you for bringing this thread back around to coffee.

    Since it's dinner time here on the West Coast, my wife and are kicking up the "seriousness" of our sins to wine with dinner.



  • StAnn

    MLE, let me give you my take on this. We receive grace from God freely. God WANTS to give us so much. We just have to want to receive it. Choosing to believe in Our Lord is in and of itself a work. "Choosing" is a verb. "Believing" is a verb. So it's a faith and works situation. And you are correct, once you receive God's grace and believe in him, it will change your attitude toward your actions. Once you understand grace, you are so grateful to Our Lord that you don't want to do anything that is going to offend Him. You want to do good things because it is the right thing to do, in Jesus' eyes.

    Grace changes everything. That's the problem with the JWs. Theirs is purely works with no concept that the heart needs to be involved. You have to know Jesus to love him and the JWs have taken Jesus away from their adherents. The JWs are strictly legalistic with no consideration for the need to be motivated by love for God, not by fear of being hauled back into a JC.

    You know, as a mother, my sons don't have to do anything for me to love them. I was in love with them from the moment I found out I was pregnant, talking to the little baby in my belly. And when you finally see your child for the first time after they are born, you are hooked. Head over heels in love and it lasts forever. JWs don't understand that this is how God loves us. Yes, we do things we shouldn't and it hurts him because he knows we've set ourselves up for trouble. He wants to help us avoid painful situations but, like all children, we have to learn for ourselves.

    The JW God is a detached dictator who has made up an endless list of rules, just waiting for someone to screw up so he can slap them down. Is it no wonder JW parents often follow that same parenting model?

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog


    You did a good job explaining grace and the differences with what the JWs teach. I think an area that you left out was the role faith plays in our growth as Christians. Could you comment on how faith tranforms your desire for the law and sin, to a desire for Christ and his grace?

    The JW's faith seems to be placed in the org. and the fact that God (Jehovah) exist. Christ's death only covers Adam's sin. The JW is left to change himself by the law and the fear of the WT (works).

    My faith as a Christian, is in Christ, and his work on the cross. His death cover's all my sin, past, present and future. I also have faith in God's promise to conform me to the image of his son. Yes, I do still sin, but I believe ( or I have faith) that God is at work, and a transformation is underway.

  • WTWizard

    Their idea of "serious sin" is anything that might provide pleasure or that might get you to think. It is to set "regular sins" apart (a "regular sin" is something like wearing a colored dress shirt, cutting in from field circus at 2 instead of 2:30 PM, using an expletive like "darn", or having the wrong style of supplies).

    To me, the only serious sin would be something where you deliberately initiate force, threats of force, or fraud against innocent people. A serious sin would be to use illusion of authority to molest children and then silence them. A serious sin would be to promise to bring the opposite sex into someone's life and then welsh on it (or worse, welsh on it and then try to set the person up for same-sex children around 6-9 years old). A serious sin would be to scare 6 year olds into getting baptized. A serious sin would be to ban college, threatening with their lives, when college is a practical necessity these days. A serious sin would be to use the Bible to back up rules that aren't even there (like celebrating holidays and birthdays). And so on.

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