Livingbreeze said:
The apostles never claimed that salvation was by or through them (neither does the Watchtower Society make this claim),
My reply:
The Wt has said flat out:
"Come to Jehovah's organization for salvation."
I do not know exactly how much clearer they could have said it for you to understand.
I read most of the article you're quoting, and Jesus is definitely revealed as God's means of salvation, as shown in the same article. That being the case, what do you think that quote means in the context of the article?
Here's what came to my mind:
(Hebrews 10:19-31) 19 Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 which he inaugurated for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us approach with true hearts in the full assurance of faith, having had our hearts sprinkled from a wicked conscience and our bodies bathed with clean water. 23 Let us hold fast the public declaration of our hope without wavering, for he is faithful that promised. 24 And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, 25 not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near. 26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,27 but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition. 28 Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. 29 Of how much more severe a punishment, do YOU think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? 30 For we know him that said: "Vengeance is mine; I will recompense"; and again: "Jehovah will judge his people." 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of [the] living God.
I can see here that wilful sin is closely associated with those that gather in the Christian congregation and those that don't. Elders, for example, are watching over our souls. Christians help one another and encourage one another as a united group, or congregation. No one is claiming to be the means or source of salvation, I left Christendom because they were not teaching the truth about God and Christ.
You have made some valid points there. I would wonder what you believe about the condition of the dead,
Man has a soul that lives beyond the body
the dead are concious of nothing, without the resurrection there is no hope of being concious and alive again.
You are quoting Solomon out of context and nailing it as a proof-text. This was a depressed and fallen from God Solomon philosophising about life...here are his words in full:
Eccl 9:
5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.
Even JWs do not teach this. Solomon said that they have no reward and the memory of them is forgotten...while the Wt teaches they may have a reward and not all are forgotten.
(Genesis 3:17-19) 17 And to Adam he said: "Because you listened to your wife’s voice and took to eating from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18 And thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return."
So Adam, with the judgement of death, would return to the ground, I don't see any immortal soul here. He is even described as dust, made out of dust and having returned to dust. Interesting how you find that dust remains concious with no life in it. Here was an opportunity for God to teach us about something that survives after death. I'd like to emphasize what God said to Adam, "until you return to the ground." Adam was a living soul, once that living soul is dead, it is dead, lifeless, without conciousness, it returns to the ground just as God said.
who are the 144,000,
Jews
Spiritual Israel accepts Christ and they are both Jews and Gentiles
Following your viewpoint (which may be correct) then that would make the Revelation 7 description of 12,000 out of 12 tribes symbolic...making the number 144,000 symbolic.
I don't see God's description of spiritual Israel symbolic, no more symbolic than spiritual Israel being composed of real people. It is a description of how the true Israel of God is organized. Where is God's throne, and where is Christ seated? Do you believe that there will be those living and ruling from heaven along with Jesus for a thousand years? Over whom shall they rule? Who will be on earth?
what is God's purpose for the earth and mankind,
for man to ultimately live, where New Jerusalem will be
funny, Christendom always taught me everyone goes to heaven
Broad generalization. However, nowhere does the bible substantiate that one class will go to heaven and rule over another class on earth.
Tell me then what the purpose is for the 144,000? Tell me why God said the righteous will live on earth forever?
do you believe while being mortal, we have an immortal soul?
Yes
interesting you don't even believe in our own mortality, only Christ and those he chooses come to have "life in themselves" (immortal) while the rest of mankind recieves everlasting life in dependance upon God, mixing two different things, mortality and immortality is a contradiction.
You do the work here and paste those verses you feel substantiate your assertion here and then I will comment.
Without quoting, we can look in Genesis, "Would Adam and Eve have lived forever had they obeyed God?" Were their lives dependent upon air, food, and water?
***
8
"Most truly I say to you, The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live. For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. I do admit I sometimes think something is in a passage when it is not, that is why I do like to look it up. I do believe that the 144,000 will have the same life Jesus has now ruling with him as kings and priests in heaven, ruling over those resurected to everlasting life on earth.Do you believe God's punishment of the mortal wicked is never ending torment?
hell
how then is death and hell cast into the lake of fire, sybolizing the second death, which means no hope forever of being resurrected to life and conciousness?
Hell is not a final destination, gehenna is.
What does gehenna represent?
My question to you:
On what basis do you claim that the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses is God's sole and direct channel of communication to man?
I didn't claim that, but I will say they have not steered me wrong as Christendom did, the bible, along with the help of the holy spirit, through Christ is God's means of communication, I don't find their teachings out of line with the bible, which is like God's written garantee that he said it or had it recorded. On what basis do the leaders of Christendom (the clergy) claim to speak for God?
I did not claim any group is God's channel. The Wt claims they themselves are.
Interesting I ran into so many from Christendom claiming God spoke to them, or called them to do certain things. What sort of claims are these? I'd even have people come to me saying that they felt God was telling them to tell me this or that. If someone is really a follower of Jesus, either they can prove, from the bible, what God is or is not saying to me or they can't.
