The fundamental flaw with the WTBTS as "God's Organization"?

by Essan 40 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • streets76

    What ex-witness said. The fundamental flaw is the belief that there is a creator god somewhere who cares about our well-being and has communicated his directions to us via holy text. It is absurd and laughable.

    Someone once said, and I think I've repeated here before, that Science is the search for truth and Religion is the search for comfort. Just thought I'd repeat it again.

  • Essan

    Some great replies thanks.

    I do feel the 1914-1919 period and the supposed "choosing"and "appointing" at that time is the vulnerable 'Achilles heel' for the Org.

    It can be presented as a very valid challenge "Look, I will stay (or join) if you can prove Scripturally that God said he would have one Org, and that the Society is it and was chosen in 1919. If you can do that, as you should be able to, I'll stay."

    As soon as we get to the "Slave" Scripture, they have to prove they were "Discreet" and were feeding pure food at the proper time - but their own publications show this to be totally false.

    Then when we get to the "Wise Virgins" Scripture - another supposed 1919 prophesy about the Society - they have to prove they were "awake" when the cry went up that the Master had arrived. They had to be ready at the time. Unfortunately they were wrongly teaching he had arrived 40 years earlier in 1874, so they were "asleep".

    And the biggest gift the Society has given us relating to this pivotal time of supposed "choosing" is that, just as some quoted on the previous page, they lie now about what they preached in the run up to 1914, which shows they know full well that what they taught them is a 'black mark' against them and would disqualify them from being "chosen". This lie is easily exposed, because it just involves comparing quotes from now and then.

  • ssn587

    Yeah the flaw is that the Org says that, "we are the faithful and discreet slave and the channel that yahweh uses to communicate to us miscreants here upon the earth." or something really close. their imperical proof is "we say so, so it is truth". I am amazed at all the Bs coming out of their mouths and the mouths of their followers. Any thing happening in the world, the tragedy in the Philippines, War in Afghanistan and iraq, cold weather in Antartica all point to the end being near and Satan conducting things here upon the earth. They are so full of themselves, not realizing that they are really full of it. xxxx

  • PSacramento

    Here is my line of argument:

    Ask a JW: Is God all powerful? all knowing? all present?

    They will answer yes.

    Can anyone or anything stop God's message?

    They will say no.

    Ask them WHY God needs an "earthly organization" if they above are Yes'.

    You can also ask them if God has ever spoken via an organization like the Pharisees or has he always spoken via individuals like Noah,Abraham, Isaac, Joseph, Moses, Elijah, Elisha, Jerimiah, Daniel and of course, Jesus and the Apostles.

    Now, I grant you that some JW MAy say that the Apostles were an "organization" but then they have to prove it in the bible and nowhere is the term organization, or any other comparable term, used to discribe the Apostles.

  • read good books
    read good books

    I think your question is best but the other fundamental question is since all their predictions in the twentieth century were wrong and Deuteronomy says that when a prophet phrophecies and what they say does not come to pass that is a false prophet and should not be listened to, in that case why does the Watchtower Society still exist?

  • chrisjoel

    If GOD always works thru an organization then why did he choose a dude who owned a clothing store instead of the WHOLE CLOTHING STORE CHAIN? especially since clothes MAKE the man! Unless of course ONE person is the new definition of organization.

    Oh wait, i forgot, the word ORGANZATION is whatever the Society says it is! Oi vey!

  • miseryloveselders

    The thing I find the most ironic about it all is, when I do a search for an article that makes an argument in support of the Faithful and Discreet Slave as being something prophetic in nature, I can't find anything. I looked in the Insight Books, and if my memory serves me correct, it takes a pot shot at Christendom, and then it still doesn't make an argument to support the Slave Class as being prophetic and only applicable to the WTS.

    Maybe this is a job for Blondie or other CD Rom specialists on here. Can anybody locate an article that supports the Faithful and Discreet Slave as something prophetic and applicable to the WT only? I'm asking for an article of some type that logically makes the argument for the WTS being the subject of Christ's parable, and evidence that this parable is more than just an illustration.

  • chrisjoel

    Isaiah 22:15-25 Shebna and Eliakim, the faithful and unfaithful servants!!!


    "It seems like there is some fundamental belief which is somehow not touched by seeing these various errors and which anchors them to the Society no matter what.

    What is that fundamental belief and how how can it be dealt with?

    My own opinion is that this 'lynchpin' belief, the unchallenged assumption, is that the Society is "God's Organization", the rep of the "Faithful and Discreet Slave". Everything else rests on that, and as long as that notion remains unchallenged, nothing else matters. All 'sins' no matter how gross will often be overlooked because of this core assumption.

    I think this belief is a little like the little energy port that Luke has to shoot in Star Wars to destroy the otherwise indestructible 'Death Star" LOL. The energy port leads to the Core - Boom. Hit that and it's Game Over.

    So, my thought is that for many JW's the 'satellite' issues - no matter how serious they are - and irrelevant as long as the Core Assumption remains intact. Which means the key issue would be to show that they cannot be "The Faithful and Discreet Clave" and simply cannot have been appointed to anything in 1919, and this is actually pretty easily done. If this is shown to be impossible, then the reason for their dismissing all the other errors simply vanishes.

    That's my feeling anyway.

    What say you?"


    The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is a legal organization in use by Jehovah’s Witnesses and Bible based publications are simply a source of assistance to understand God's Word.

    If wanted to learn C# I could get involved with the development community:

    Or I could read a book:

    Notice 4.0. This is because the book has been revised to clear up any prior errors and the language has been refined as well.

    Rbi8 p. 8 Introduction

    This 1984 revised edition of the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures richly enhances accurate Bible knowledge by means of several distinctive features such as the marginal (cross) references, an extensive footnote apparatus, a concordance (Bible Words Indexed) and an appendix. Modern computerization has assisted greatly in preparing these features.

    MARGINAL REFERENCES: There are more than 125,000 marginal (cross) references in this edition. These citations demonstrate that there is at least a second witness to almost every Biblical matter. A careful comparison of the marginal references and an examination of the accompanying footnotes will reveal the interlocking harmony of the 66 Bible books, proving that they comprise one book, inspired by God.

    Insignificant errors don't really mean anything as long an organization advances on an upward scale. People here often take things out of context (the context is unrelated) and compare unrelated information in search for an error.

    For example, the accusations about false prophets:

    g93 3/22 pp. 3-4 Why So Many False Alarms?

    Does the failure of such predictions to come true convict as false prophets those who made them, within the meaning of Deuteronomy 18:20-22? That text reads: “The prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. And in case you should say in your heart: ‘How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?’ when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak.”

    There are some who make spectacular predictions of the world’s end to grab attention and a following, but others are sincerely convinced that their proclamations are true. They are voicing expectations based on their own interpretation of some scripture text or physical event. They do not claim that their predictions are direct revelations from Jehovah and that in this sense they are prophesying in Jehovah’s name. Hence, in such cases, when their words do not come true, they should not be viewed as false prophets such as those warned against at Deuteronomy 18:20-22. In their human fallibility, they misinterpreted matters.

    w64 1/1 p. 4 Will Sincerity Alone Please God?

    In the all-important matter of worshiping God, it is likewise true that sincerity alone does not guarantee that God is pleased with our worship. We may conscientiously believe we are doing well in this regard, yet we may be deluding ourselves.

    I may have an opinion about who I believe is deceiving their own mind about pleasing God, but what is stated in the 1964 Watchtower was for the purpose of self-reflection, not a means to judge others. Part of the problem with anonymously accusing Jehovah's Witnesses on the internet, of something the Bible defines as immoral, is nobody knows who you are. People can visit a Kingdom Hall to see if Jehovah's Witnesses are who they make themselves out to be.

  • wasblind

    "People can visit a Kingdom Hall to see if Jehovah's Witnesses are who they make themselves out to be. "

    Alice, what do you make them out to be ?

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