Memorial talk wt escape clause (page 2)

prologos

In the OP I was describing the situation of understanding AT THE TIME Jesus passed the bread and wine to the disciples. On that first "last supper' they, including Jesus, believed in, talked in terms of.- a recreated, earthly Israelite kingdom. Of course in the earlier Mathew 19 kingdom reference, with only 12 present, only twelve thrones, not 144 000 would be the right (temporary) number of seats to talk about. My point was, the disciples were NOT in the KINGDOM covenant, nor did they have a heavenly hope when they shared the cup. cheers.

BSW if you are in Australia and celebrate the 'memorial' right NOW, it is not a full moon, but the eclipse has started, left lower corner bitten off by gaia. enjoy the show.

B4Right

What we are forgetting is that Rev 14:3 "144,000 bought from the earth". RNWT.

prologos

B4right, the issue raised is not whether the scripture allow for close associates of Jesus in heaven*, but if the New Covenant and it's symbols should be.- or were -in Jesus' time exclusive to the 12x12x10^3. The passover was a family meal, and the new covenant for forgiveness of sin, open to all. The kingdom covenant, as wt alleges in the memorial outline, did not exist at the time of the last supper's consumption

.* even the mothers of disciples got in the act of fighting for favoured positions in the kingdom, wherever.

OneFingerSalute

This was found on jwtalk in one of the "let's all pat ourselves on the back" forums.

"The reported number of partakers will be somewhere between zero and two, depending on which elder finally wins that argument. . ."

So we can all be clear about it now. It isn't that mythical holy spirit that decides if you are worthy to nibble the cracker and sip the wine. it is some pompous ass elder.

fukitol

There's more than 12 thrones Searcher. In any event, the 144k are clearly a subset of all other Christians being differentiated in scripture from the rest they are taken out of, since they are taken 'from' each of the twelve tribes. If not all are on thrones, then perhaps all are priests, as a parallel to the Levitical priestly class of ancient Israel.

NIV:

Revelation 3:21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Revelation 4:4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.
Revelation 11:16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God,
Revelation 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

prologos

wt has admitted surreptitiously, or unknowingly that the 3 entities in Rev 7 are part of the same bigger group. the twelve tribes are also the great crowd, the 144 come out of the 12 tribes, just as the sealed ones come out of the OS earthly class. The rulers, (who at the time of the Exodus were supposed to be the first born of each and all tribes).

I can not imagine how the average partaker would be an asset to the working of the vast cosmos, which seem to have done quite well without them so far, thank you. Wt is not wise to deny the perceived gift of life's symbol from the majority, to exalt the too few partakers. The bible contains mixed-up plots, expect chaos in it's application.

jhine

I think that Rev 21 :1-3 is relevant here .

" Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth , for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away and there was no longer any sea . I saw the Holy City Jerusalem coming down out if heaven from God , prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband . And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying , " Now the dwelling of God is with men , and He will live with them They will be His people and God Himself will be with them and be their God " "

Now I know that Rev is about symbolism and I do not pretend to understand this , but it would seem that maybe heaven and earth , as we know them now may be more closely linked at some later time . So how we sea heaven and earth now may not be as we will see them then .

Jan

SonoftheTrinity

Look at the moon you were born under

April-Reuben

May-Simeon

June-Levi

July-Judah

August-Issachar

September-Zebulon

October-Dan

November-Gad

December-Asher

January-Naphali

February-Joseph

March-Benjamin

Accept that and see yourself as Israel...No need for the eight empty suits just to belong to the Great Crowd. The Great Crowd are all people who love God of all religions.

prologos

SonotT. John in writing Revelation 7, the final list, cancelled all the 'October born', and added the reward for Joseph for his long suffering. or? Is there not room for all living without having wt thinking to pigeonhole us?

SonoftheTrinity

Aha! Dan is left out in Rev. 7 because the line of thinking at the time was that the Antichrist would come from the tribe of Dan (read the apocryphal Book of the Bee someday) But as long as a Danite knows that it is the East Gate he must enter its all good. There is room for all who love God, Zoroastrians, you name it, for the great crowd is so great that NO MAN CAN NUMBER. So it can't be just the Jehovah's Witnesses because they are always doing a census of their membership, as if a census can number the heart! As for the Danite Antichrist, personally I think that the Israelis and the Palestinians will try to comprimise and prop up a King from among the tiny Samaritan community, but that he will turn out to be wicked.

Memorial talk wt escape clause

Jan

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