Tammy your faith is in Christ regardless if the bible is accurate or not.... and that is understandable. Now where exactly do we learn that Jesus Christ existed and is Gods son? Isnt it from the bible? Is there any other document that can prove he existed.... now that presents a dilemma. I was a Theist for 39 years until less than a year ago by analyzing my beliefs I lost a way to back up my beliefs.
Bible CONTRADICTIONS (Post Yours Here!) -- And Yahweh is a "Monster"!
by UnDisfellowshipped 47 Replies latest watchtower bible
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tec
I understand what you're saying CyberJesus. I do. And I believe yours is the same point that Terry tries so hard to drill into me. Its not that I don't get the point. It just does not compel me to abandon (or to lose) my faith.
I'm not a scholar on bible history (the making of; the documents and time they were made, copied, etc.) so I can't speak with absolute authority on any of the more 'detailed?' points. But here is my layperson's view:
1) the bible is many documents. Someone just made the mistake of making it all into one book, and calling that entire book infallible. (imhumbleo)
2) the bible (NT anyway) is a written account if the sayings and actions of Christ and his followers (and opponents) Therefore, the bible is a witness to Jesus Christ. It certainly tells a lot about what the people of that time believed and were willing to live/die for.
3) I believe in what Jesus said and taught (or is written to have said, if you prefer). I believe the message. And I like this: "If I said something wrong," Jesus replied, "testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?"
(I don't use that scripture to say whether or not Jesus is the Christ - because that cannot be proven, at least not from one person to another, yet. But about the things he taught, just so we understand each other)
I also think it is very compelling that so many people afterward were willing to die for Him. (Yes, that means nothing if they truly believed that He was the Christ and they had eternal life in him - and they could have been fooled. BUT, the people at the 'top' so to speak? How willing would they have been to die for a farce they, themselves, had created?)
Tammy
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Awakened at Gilead
I also think it is very compelling that so many people afterward were willing to die for Him.
Suicide bombers are willing to die for Allah. Allah must be true then.
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tec
Suicide bombers are willing to die for Allah. Allah must be true then.
You didn't read what I said, Awakened.
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cyberjesus
I understand what you're saying CyberJesus. I do. And I believe yours is the same point that Terry tries so hard to drill into me. Its not that I don't get the point. It just does not compel me to abandon (or to lose) my faith.
>>Faith is blind so it doesnt matter if you were to find that Jesus was really Satan if you have faith you will still believe whatever your faith tells you. Thats the beauty of Faith that you can believe whatever rocks your boat. And that is fine if thats what you prefer
I'm not a scholar on bible history (the making of; the documents and time they were made, copied, etc.) so I can't speak with absolute authority on any of the more 'detailed?' points. But here is my layperson's view:
>>Neither do I. But I decided to find out if the record of the person I believed to be Jesus were real... needless to say we have no way to verify them because there are none.
1) the bible is many documents. Someone just made the mistake of making it all into one book, and calling that entire book infallible. (imhumbleo)
>> Many losts documents that we dont have originals... but hey we have FAITH and faith fixes anything. We have half way documents...we have faith. We have stories that contradict themselves.... we have faith.. Oh thank God for faith.
2) the bible (NT anyway) is a written account if the sayings and actions of Christ and his followers (and opponents) Therefore, the bible is a witness to Jesus Christ. It certainly tells a lot about what the people of that time believed and were willing to live/die for.
>>>That is if the NT is true. but is it? Can we verify it? We could either do some research or....you got it. We could have FAITH and not worry!
3) I believe in what Jesus said and taught (or is written to have said, if you prefer). I believe the message. And I like this: "If I said something wrong," Jesus replied, "testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?"
>>Really it doesnt matter if he said it or not. We have FAITH so we can believe all the fantasies we want and we can attribute whatever miracle because...there is evidence? nah! because we have FAITH
(I don't use that scripture to say whether or not Jesus is the Christ - because that cannot be proven, at least not from one person to another, yet. But about the things he taught, just so we understand each other)
>>you are right it can not be proven if he is who we think he is. or if he taught what the NT says. It doesnt matter because we have FAITH!
I also think it is very compelling that so many people afterward were willing to die for Him. (Yes, that means nothing if they truly believed that He was the Christ and they had eternal life in him - and they could have been fooled. BUT, the people at the 'top' so to speak? How willing would they have been to die for a farce they, themselves, had created?)
>>many people were willing to die for the WT directive of not taking in blood, therefore the WT is right... do you see your reasoning? The fact that people are willing to die for their beliefs only proves one thing... that people are willing to die for what they believe. but that doesnt prove that what they believe is right. I was willing to die for JESUS just last year... I am soooooooo glad I didnt face that experience.
So we have faith because we learn from the bible we need to have faith.. and it doesnt matter if the bible is wrong because we have faith and faith can not be wrong because is from the bible.... oh my god. I think I am in the middle of a predicament.
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tec
>>many people were willing to die for the WT directive of not taking in blood, therefore the WT is right... do you see your reasoning? The fact that people are willing to die for their beliefs only proves one thing... that people are willing to die for what they believe. but that doesnt prove that what they believe is right. I was willing to die for JESUS just last year... I am soooooooo glad I didnt face that experience.
Neither you NOR Awakened read what I wrote, I guess.
People die for their beliefs, yes. Of course that does not make their beliefs true. But how many people die for a lie that they themselves made up? Lets say Paul made the whole thing up. What did he gain? Beatings. Imprisonment. Possibly execution as well? For what? For something that he knew wasn't true? Same with Peter and the rest of the disciples.
Plus, please understand that I also said that I find this very compelling. I do not find it as proof positive. In fact, everything I wrote are things I find compelling. Evidence. Not proof.
Faith, which I hadn't really touched on in my post, takes me from evidence/compelling to belief - but it is not blind. Do I ever have doubts? Yes - though rarely ever anymore. I only have to think of Christ, then peace settles over me, and the doubts fade to nothing.
(just as a side note though, I have researched things that have concerned me. For example, when all those claims about Zeitgeist and copycat Jesus came up, I was frightened at first and ignored the doubts and claims, then I called myself a coward and looked it all up - all the myths and comparisons, including the source material. Discovering the falsehoods that I did made my faith that much stronger, though I was angry at myself for allowing someone else to make me doubt to begin with.)
Tammy -
steve2
Tammy, there are others reasons people have for dying for their beliefs. You're right: Who would die for a lie they make up? Excellent point.
But what about people who in all innocence are deluded in their beliefs, who honestly and genuinely believe they are serving God but whoi are clearly wrong?
Unfortunately, the world is over-filled with people having all sorts of beliefs - Christian and otherwise - who genuniely believe they have the "true" belief and are willing to suffer persecution for it. Take the members of the B'hai faith in Iran who are relentlessly persecuted by Iranian authorities. Just one of far too many examples of people mistaking the strength of their conviction for its correctness.
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AGuest
PAUL (a former Pharisee, disciple of Christ, but NOT one of the 12) to Timothy, another disciple: "All scripture is inspired and beneficial for teaching..."
JEREMIAH (a Prophet of the True God, the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, who wrote "scripture") to Israel: "The FALSE STYLUS of the secretaries has worked in sheer falsehood..."
JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH (Son and Christ of the True God, the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, about whom the "scriptures" bore witness) to those who had the responsibility of copying the Law: "WOE, to YOU... scribes... hypocrites!"...
and to his disciples and apostles: "You search the scriptures because you THINK that by means of them you will have everlasting life; and these are the very ones that bear witness to me. Yet, you do not want to come... to ME that you may have life"...
and to me, SA, his servant, to time indefinite: "ALL things I tell you ARE written (but not necessarily in the Bible) and NOT all things that are written (particularly in the Bible) are what I will tell you."
I bid you all peace... and ears to hear... the One who was APPOINTED by God to speak to the sons of mankind, the personification of Wisdom, the WORD of God and His Chosen One, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... who is the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit... and who SPEAKS to earthling man... from "the heavens"... the "kingdom" of which... is INSIDE you.
A slave of Christ,
SA
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Terry
If the Bible were presented to each and every person who FIRST encounters it as a FLAWED compilation of TRANSMITTED documents which were
changed repeatedly by those who copied or translated it--------it would be a world away from saying---this is GOD's holy inspired word; intact,
unerring and faithful-----do you suppose anybody would automatically have FAITH in it?
The persons whom we love and trust most on this planet have a warped view which they pass on to us.
What people express FAITH in is not really the book itself so much as the perceived VALUE of having a spirit directed personal message from Almighty God.
Who would give that up? Why would they?
You wouldn't give up your mother just because somebody pointed out her personal flaws, would you?
Of course not!
LOYALTY to the "value'; the imputed VALUE is what believer's are clutching to their chest.
I keep this in mind when I hear the clangor of desperate FAITH in their voices and the total unwillingness to investigate the veracity of such claims.
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garyneal
Still waiting for those answers.