PROVENANCE , EUCLID and the test of the BIBLE itself

by Terry 32 Replies latest jw friends

  • Terry
    PROVENANCE: The history of ownership of a work of art; the copy history of a piece of data, or the intermediate pieces of data utilized to compute a final data element. a chain of custody, ownership and certificate of authenticity

    There was once a Greek fellow we call EUCLID. He compiled all the known information of his day concerning GEOMETRY and created a text.

    Euclid of Alexandria

    about 325 BC - about 265 BC

    Click the picture above
    to see six larger pictures

    Euclid was a Greek mathematician best known for his treatise on geometry: The Elements . This influenced the development of Western mathematics for more than 2000 years.

    The text was handed down through the years from generation to generation and still exists in our own day.

    It is perfectly preserved.

    Euclid's definitions and axioms

    How do we know?

    The "Proofs" in the text are created with perfect logical connections resulting in testable re-creations.

    A person in China and a person in Tierra del Fuego can both work the same Geometry problems and obtain identical results.

    The result can be PROVED. No opinion, interpretation or apologia is necessary.

    This is the work of mere men but has passed the test of the millennia.

    Isn't it sad that ancient Greeks could do this but the Almighty creator of the Universe could not??

    We are faced with TWO CHOICES.

    Either God tried to create his infallible text and the effort failed.


    God DID NOT try, did not fail and what we have today is a PIOUS FRAUD perpetrated from generation to generation by POWER BROKERS in the church to maintain CONTROL over their followers.

    You decide which.

    Proof Texts are what Jehovah's Witnesses rely on. After that, the interpretation OF those proof texts.

    If the Texts themselves are just simply bogus---they have absolutely NO foundation left!

    Without a connecting, testable LOGIC the claims of the Bible as to authorship and inspiration fall flat.

    What the Bible has to have is PROVENANCE. Chain of custody proving it is authentic.

    The Bible has no such provenance. Without provenance there is no authentication. All that is left are "claims" without linking proof.

    This would result in-----not one clear testable proof---but thousands of "possible" interpretations---all equally attested!

    When I was a scripture spouting JW I was under the honestly held opinion that there existed in this world ORIGINAL AUTOGRAPH manuscripts

    which--when properly translated---gave us the infallible word of Jehovah.

    I did not know or even suspect no such manuscripts have existed for two thousand years!!

    Brokers of scriptural purity (called: Apologists) make phoney arguments which they KNOW are strawman arguments.

    They cannot face the fact that without knowing Jesus' ACTUAL WORDS we don't have christianity, theology, core teaching or interpretation.

    Without original manuscipts by which we CHECK our translation for authenticity we can't have PROPHECY either!!

    What are we left with? Approximations. Literary constructs. Invented dialogue. In short: historical fiction offered as "inspired."

    But--those approximations aren't even based on the ACTUAL words of Jesus or Paul. We have entirely INVENTED dialogue passed off as authentic reports!

    What we are quoting when we are PROVING a teaching is somebody's MADE UP WORDS!!

    What did Jesus say in his prayer to his Father in the Garden of Gethsemane on the night of his arrest, for example? We have every single word and a vivid description of his struggles and agony.

    But--WHO was awake and copying those words down?

    Nobody! The all fell asleep!

    The scenario is like a screenplay and it was crafted by a highly imaginative writer at some point.

    Word of mouth stories gain details which make the story more persuasive over time.

    As objections are raised by listeners.....certain adjustments must be made.

    The story "improves" slightly at the next telling. And so on...

    Hundreds and hundreds of tellings and improvements and adjustments.....


    As these stories got committed to writing entire families of texts preserved the story up to a certain point in time.

    By that time, however, no record was possible of who changed what, who said what and how the "facts" were maintained.

    There weren't dishonest people involved in this deterioration either! No. Far from it.

    We have rabidly honest and truthful people. Each was a link in a long chain.

    Each copyist, translator or redactor "helped" the text he had by "correcting it" when it didn't make sense. They tweeked it with honest intentions so that it would 'READ BETTER!"

    They thought they actually KNEW how it should read and made certain that (in there copy or version) it DID!

    Tens of thousands of these "corrections", insertions, sidebars had the effect of counterfeiting scripture in its chain of transmission.

    Yes, there are thousands of copies of the New Testment in manuscripts and fragments. But, the sheer number means absolutely NOTHING if they are containing counterfeit words!

    Which would YOU rather have? One genuine hundred dollar bill or ten thousand counterfeit ones??

    Any honest inquirer can read the history of the transmission of bible texts and come to the same conclusion.


    This is vitally important to understand. Many, many apologist teachers, professors, preachers and clergymen have made it their life's work to MAKE SURE YOU DON'T find this out!! Why? Is it because they are crooks and malefactors?? No!

    They too are "correcting" the story and making it come out right by making arguments, excuses and diversionary points which IGNORE the actual fact no authentic original manuscipts exist!!

    If you read THOSE apologists everything is just dandy and no problem exists at all.

    But, schools of honest scholars for the past hundred years have gradually unearthed the true picture of what the Bible really amounts to.

    IT IS NOT a supernatural document giving us Jesus' words or God's words or Paul's words. It is word of mouth stories later written down and collated into a SOURCE DOCUMENT (Q). From that source ALL the Gospels were expanded into a story form with make-believe quotations and conversations.

    That is a far cry from an iron clad document from heaven you can parse, interpret and memorize for teaching, reproving and setting things straight.

    The Bible is a wikipedia and fan fiction passed off by well-intentioned people as the actual WORD OF GOD.

    It isn't!

  • whereami

    Another good thought provoking thread Terry!!! Thanks

    You know the more I hear apologist try to shrug these facts off, the more I see that they're really not interested in 'truth".

    But one never knows, there's always one or two "honest harted", "truth loving" ones listening.

    The "truth" is just too painfull to except sometimes .

  • Terry

    This topic is a real No-No.

    Yours is the only response. Tsk tsk.

    Why do I even bother???

  • new light
    new light

    Bulletproof logic as usual, Terry.

    This post has to get through to someone, IMO. How could someone read this and continue to blindly believe the bible?

  • whereami

    As I said before "The "truth" is just too painfull to except sometimes."

    The vast majority of religious people want, and quite frankly NEED there delusion too seem real to them. Anything less would be devastating too endure.

    Even though I might not comment on all your posts, I for one very much appreciate your clarity and insight on these subjects.

  • lalliv01

    I read and enjoy your posts, Terry. I like to witness a good, honest debate whence good information

    can be derived from. In order to evince more info out of you one has to challange your argument. It's

    difficult to argue against reaon and logic, and faith VS. reason and logic make very poor debating

    contestants. If you don't have faith you'll never believe, you know, when "you walk by faith", etc.

    People of faith can prove nothing about their faith for if they did, it would not be faith anymore, it would

    be fact.

    To believe the Bible is "the" word of God one must abandon reality and just have "true faith."

    Or the Kuran, the Book of Mormon, etc.. People are literally blowing themselves up because of

    and in the name of their faith. You cannot convince them, they will never convince you. I

    believe reality exists, but a question for you: does faith, as in "walk by faith" alone, exist in your life?

    Thanks and keep posting.

  • Mall Cop
    Mall Cop

    Terry, The fact that you don't get too many responses about this topic is because what you put out there can't be refuted, proved to be false by argument or evidence to the contrary.

    This topic is a real yes - yes!

    Keep on bothering. You don't know how many believers are getting their doubts about the Bible coming from God confirmed from topics such as this one.

    People are reading your post's and some are tonque tied and scrambling to try and come up with a coherent response without having to work at it like you do.

    You have many supporters, chin up, keep on doing what you do best.

    Blueblades / Mall Cop

  • PSacramento
    We are faced with TWO CHOICES.
    Either God tried to create his infallible text and the effort failed.

    God DID NOT try, did not fail and what we have today is a PIOUS FRAUD perpetrated from generation to generation by POWER BROKERS in the church to maintain CONTROL over their followers

    Why do we only have TWO choices again?

  • Terry

    Why do we only have TWO choices again?

    It will confuse you if you get more!!

    Why be greedy?

  • PSacramento

    LMAO !!
    Fair enough !

    That is why I do NOT view the bible as innerrant and nothing more than a collection of writings, some inspired by God, yes, but also many just Man's opinion on things and views on things in relation to his place in the world.

    Ancient Man wroter according to what he knew and understood, when he, like his neighbour, went to war and prayed to YHWH and WON, YHWH was happy and approved, when he lost YHWH was sad and they were being punished, that was what he felt and that was what he wrote.

    No matter HOW many times God told him not to do it, LOL !

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