Would the world be a better place without Atheism/Religious-ism?

by AK - Jeff 98 Replies latest jw friends

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Zeus,

    I really think that it wasn't a question of condoning slavery, it was more the knowledge that true salvation comes from being free INSIDE first and then free outside, Jesus focused on THAT message and he also KNEW, like we know, that IF he went against slavery and condemed it that it would either cuase a serious problem, ending in lots of deaths, OR it would have been ignored by the Jews, like his view on Divorce.

    I think that Jesus didn't adress slavery simply because it was not something who's time had come, it would have been counter-productive.

    If even NOW ( as in20th-21st century times) with our superiour morality there are still slaves in soem parts and not too long ago, still "slavery" in the states, how well do you think a DIRECT conflict with the institution of slavery would have ended?

    Jesus's teachings of do unto others and love your neighbour and love your enemy as yourself, shoudl have been enough of a "broad brush stroke" to understand his views on how to treat your fellow man, friend or foe.

  • ZeusRocks
    ZeusRocks

    The purpose that animated the first generation of Christians was to spread the Gospel, not to change the social order.

    Why don't you just ignore the christians for a minute. The biblical jesus as either god or the son of god would have known it was immoral for a person to own another person as property. He taught many many things that was different to the social and cultural order of things, yet he didn't say anything about owning another person as property in order to correct wrong thinking in regards to fellow human beings.

    I really don't care how you want to justify it in your own head, but the reality it, there is no justification in not speaking against slavery if you know better, even in your closest circle of followers to help them understand why it is wrong to own another human being.

    It's about doing what is right, not what is comfortable. Even us mere mortals understand that.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    Jesus came with a specific purpose, and his ministry was 3 1/2 years long. His work was to save souls, not effect a political revolution.

    BTS

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Zeus,

    No one can speak WHY Jesus did or didn't do this or that, we are just voicing our views.

    We don't know if he DID speak about it to his closest friends, we just know it wasn't mentioned in the NT.

    I really think it was a case of his knowing the ramifications of such, hey, if they were persecuting his followers because they preached his ressurection and killing them for it, imagine if they were going around saying, "free the slaves and work for yourselves !!, forgive their debts ( some slaves were such because of debts), etc".

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Be right back...

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    I'm a bit confused over the "slavery" debate here (may you all have peace!). Are you saying that it is immoral for a christian to have a slave? If so, I have to disagree... and clarify:

    What some of you refer to here as "slaves" had two connotations during that time, one which could raise questions/concerns (if the "owner" was a christian), and one that did not. The instance that did not raise questions/concerns was merely when there was an employer/employee relationship. However, the word "slave" is entirely inaccurate in and of itself. The etymology of the word is:

    "Middle English sclave, from Anglo-French or Medieval Latin; Anglo-French esclave, from Medieval Latin sclavus, from Sclavus Slavic; from the frequent enslavement of Slavs in central Europe during the early Middle Ages. Date: 14th century. Meaning: 1: a person held in servitude as the chattel of another 2: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence."

    Since the word didn't even originate until the 14th century, however, after occurrences that didn't even occur until that time... the word in the Bible is INACCURATE. Indeed, a proper search will show that it didn't even occur in the earlier versions, in either the OT... OR the NT.

    The Hebrew words were "ebed" (meaning "servant", yes, but primarily "bondsman")... and "sakiyr" (meaning "hired" servant). In the first instance, the person took out a BOND against themselves...and thus literally "sold" themselves into service... TO PAY OFF A DEBT. This did NOT necessarily mean that the one he/she was serving was owed the debt. Often, the debts of others were paid off by the Householder, who had the money to do it. In exchange, the person served the Householder and his household. In the second instance, the person was merely an employee... and thus PAID (i.e., "hired").

    The Greek word was "doulos" and meant the same thing: bondsman, even attendant.

    The conundrum this might have caused for christians is that they were to FORGIVE the debts of others... and so taking someone in service for "bond" would have been a problem. UNLESS... the one who OWED the debt refused to be LET LOOSE of the debt but INSISTED on paying it. In which case, LOVE... would prompt the one OWED... to allow the debtor to repay... that the debtor's conscience was "clean."

    It is earthling man... the false "scribes"... who mistransliterated the word... to his own will (primarily to JUSTIFY "slavery" as WE have come to know it, starting with the Slavs in the 14th century)... and something that the accounts do not intend at all.

    It is unlawful, both under the Law Covenant (which was given AFTER Israel left Egypt)... AND under the NEW Covenant... to literally "own" another man... or woman... as a piece of property. It is NOT unlawful, under either, however, for a man to work off his debt by being another's exclusive servant, to work for his room and board, to work as another's employee... or to employee another, so long as the wage is fair and just. WHEN someone "sold" themselves into slavery, room and board was given but NOT CHARGED AGAINST THE DEBT. And... such bondsmen had to be "freed" every 7 years - they could not "sell" themselves... or be taken into service... for more than 7 years at a time.

    That is why U.S. Bankruptcy laws... which follow English common law... allow for discharge of debts. And it used to be that (1) it stayed on the credit report for 7 years (it is now approx. 10; however, foreclosures are still 7), and (2) one could file for it every 7 years (it is now every 6).

    I hope this clarifies (especially because I really do want a part-time housekeeper one day and I would hate to think that some here think me a "slave owner").

    Peace to you all!

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    It is unlawful, both under the Law Covenant (which was given AFTER Israel left Egypt)... AND under the NEW Covenant... to literally "own" another man... or woman... as a piece of property. It is NOT unlawful, under either, however, for a man to work off his debt by being another's exclusive servant, to work for his room and board, to work as another's employee... or to employee another, so long as the wage is fair and just. WHEN someone "sold" themselves into slavery, room and board was given but NOT CHARGED AGAINST THE DEBT. And... such bondsmen had to be "freed" every 7 years - they could not "sell" themselves... or be taken into service... for more than 7 years at a time.

    There is so much wrong with that statement. I won't even bother.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    No, please, dear OTWO (peace to you!)... bother. Please. I'd like to know what YOU see as "wrong." Truly.

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    I will just address one single issue since you insist.

    It is unlawful, both under the Law Covenant (which was given AFTER Israel left Egypt)... AND under the NEW Covenant... to literally "own" another man... or woman... as a piece of property.

    Leviticus 25:45-46 (New International Version)

    45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

    Leviticus 25:45-46 (English Standard Version)

    45 You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. 46You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israelyou shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.

    Leviticus 25:45-46 (King James Version)

    45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy , and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. 46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff

    Don't you hate it when you have to thump the Bible in order to make the Bible-thumpers pay attention? LOL

    Jeff

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