Let us discuss HOLY

by Terry 57 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • tec
    tec

    Gladiator - are you okay? I've loved reading your posts lately. So insightful and caring. This latest one makes me worry about you.

    Gladiator and Terry: The fact that we have this belief in the supernatural, and always have (or we developed it very early on) helps me think that such a thing exists. Why would a natural species evolve a lie? Wouldn't there have been a natural solution to whatever was needed?

    Humans also unconsciously recognize it is a sham and feel guilty and unworthy in constructing such a deus ex machina.

    Unless I am not a human, you should qualify this statement.

    Tammy

  • Terry
    Terry

    True enough. However, that does not appear to have been the case with the documents of the New Testament. They were copied far and wide, very early in church history.

    First off, the world in Jesus' day was populated by few persons with the money or education to enable them to create, own or even read books.

    It was considereded impractical and unnecessary to possess a library at home. It was an oral society. In Judaism, attending synagogue and watching the Rabbi heft the ponderous scroll open to a particular passage an read from it was enough to convince your average Jew that "holy"was

    was for formal settings.

    The apostles and many of their successors became martyrs for what they believed (and the apostles would have been in a position to know if they were lying - might not be worth dying for a lie that they knew to be a lie).

    As far as martyrs dying for something as PROOF of legitimacy---you have to be kidding right? Those Arab terrorists who flew airliners into the World Trade Center must have proved the Muslim religion is true---by that reasoning!! It takes courage and intelligence to LIVE for a true cause. Any fool can DIE for some ridiculous cultic crackpot notion! You need to sit down and THINK about what you are regurgitating straight out of Lee Strobel's Case for Christ before you parrot it aloud.

    It's simply absurd to suggest that the original autographs were simply unimportant and discarded as of no value, and there is no historical support for such a position. Every historical record we have tells us that the early Christians were zealous in spreading the Word.

    There is NO HISTORICAL SUPPORT for the fact the autograph copies of the scriptures DO NOT EXIST? They weren't preserved!!! How much more proof do you need?? Humans hang on to priceless objects of great importance no matter what the risk. People run back into their burning home to fetch photo albums fer crissakes!

    The oral society in Jesus day which embraced the Jesus story as miraculous had come to the end of their rope as Jews. The Jewish religion was on its last viable leg under the corrupt Hasmonean dynasty of Herod and was being torn asunder by the Sicarii on one side and Apocalyptic mystery cults on the other. Accepting Jesus as THE Messianic answer to the problem was practically a no brainer for these persons "willing to die" for their beliefs. The stories they heard purported to represent supernatural miracles as attending the ministry of Jesus. How low or how high was each person's threshold of acceptance of such a statement? How logical, how skeptical, how investigative do you think the average Jewish peasant really was??

  • Terry
    Terry

    Why would a natural species evolve a lie? Wouldn't there have been a natural solution to whatever was needed?

    The Chamelon disguises itself by blending in with its surroundings. It is a LIE to the eye.

    The venus fly trap represents itself as a nectar producing plant to lure flying insects to their death.

    The praying mantis resembles a twig until it pounces on its prey.

    Nature is always a LIE to some poor schmuck who doesn't bother paying attention!! (Until they are trapped by the lie.)

  • tec
    tec

    But those are all still natural things, Terry.

    Why would a natural species evolve a belief in the supernatural? Something that, in your opinion, does not exist?

  • Terry
    Terry

    Viewing ourselves as Holy or special is our greatest delusion.

    Even our concept of love is a delusion but it is possibly the closest we get to having value.

    I might phrase it differently.

    When we select for special attention a person, object or event that has meaning for us it has resonance with our life. It amplifies our best feelings.

    It reassures our hopes. We magnify the importance above and beyond the ordinary. Why? It is a hostile universe. We can use all the help we can get.

    Some people turn to the wrong things. Addictive drugs, too much alcohol, tobacco and sexual indulgence to the point of harm......ALL start out as a boon....a benefit....an oaisis of warm feeling and relaxation.....escape from the humdrum.

    So too with or "Woobie". A child clutches a favorite blanket or talks to its teddy bear or dolly for comfort, "friendship" and reassurance.

    We can invest anything with importance, beingness and mutual caring. The trick is KNOWING the difference!

    Is LOVE delusional?

    It CAN be. It doesn't HAVE to be.

    The distinction which makes the difference is how we objectify.

    What reality will we permit and what illusion must we create?

    The true nature of the object of our love or reverence has to be more reality than fantasy for us to escape the DELUSION.

  • THE GLADIATOR
    THE GLADIATOR
    Gladiator - are you okay? I've loved reading your posts lately. So insightful and caring. This latest one makes me worry about you.

    Thanks for your concern Tammy.

    Allowing ourselves to get close to the flame is a dangerous game, because though truth is often pretty it can also be ugly.

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    dear Terry...

    you said: "The Bible stories were just tales."...

    when Paul went to mars hill to preach Jesus he saw many shrines to many different mythologies...he preached Jesus as decending from the jewish nation which we can all attest are still "with us"...instead of saying His roots are in the "city of atlantis"...where would we get ANY documents from "them"?...the thing is that these were all tales that served a civic purpose...(personal barriers like intellectual status and wealth were put aside so EVERYONE could commune down by the idols)...none of them, like christianity, were a "religion" that one chose and would die for rather than recant the message of.

    I'm glad that the Holy Spirit did deposit Truth with the Holy church by means of the Holy Bible...things could have gone sideways instead of UP as a result of all the various gnostic heresies otherwise. But it is also good that we have copies of the heresies today too...they do comfirm that Jesus wasn't just "a myth", but someone who people were "connected" to on a "spiritual and religious" level...they recognised, at least, that Jesus was THE path to any "greater" knowledge that could be attained.

    it's interesting that you try to "take away" the answers found only in the bible but the questions still remain:

    were we made for more, can we do more for each other and ourselves?

    why is there something so terribly wrong with people in the world that they can't let 'love" rule?

    is there going to be justice for all those who were victims of evil men?

    if there is God, can God be known?

    love michelle

  • THE GLADIATOR
    THE GLADIATOR

    Terry, your above post is astute, as always.

    What reality will we permit and what illusion must we create?

    Ah! There's the rub!

  • Terry
    Terry

    But those are all still natural things, Terry.

    Why would a natural species evolve a belief in the supernatural? Something that, in your opinion, does not exist?

    Just to be clear: Nature means what actually exists. "Super" means "beyond". To talk about something "beyond" what actually exists is crazy talk!

    Gibberish.

    What has made humans spectacularly successful as a species is the use of imagination to create what does NOT exist and produce a useful tool.

    Sometimes we get a non-useful product from that same imagination.

    The room is dark. You are a child. You've heard spooky stories about ghosts and monsters. What does your imagination produce when you hear a strange noise in the dark?

    Fear triggers our imagination.

    Fear of death gives us both a problem (demons/ghosts, monsters) and a solution (God, spirits, angels).

    The brain does it all.

    Our job as a SANE species is to know the difference between one form of brain activity (productive) and the other (unproductive).

    Do you know how much time we waste thinking, imagining, fearing the WORST?

    Sanity is a skill set. We are not all equally good at it.

    I see people talking to themselves. The call it praying. They think it is productive. I once thought so too. Now I know it was an over-active non-productive imagination.

    Ever see a kitten fighting with an imaginary mouse?

  • Terry
    Terry

    dear Terry...

    you said: "The Bible stories were just tales."...

    when Paul went to mars hill to preach Jesus he saw many shrines to many different mythologies...he preached Jesus as decending from the jewish nation which we can all attest are still "with us"...instead of saying His roots are in the "city of atlantis"...where would we get ANY documents from "them"?..

    When Joel Rosenberg or James Patterson or Clive Cussler or John Grisham write about fictional characters they always place them in actual cities and not Atlantis. Does this mean their fictional characters actually exist and their adventures are somehow true?

    it's interesting that you try to "take away" the answers found only in the bible

    Well now--I have ASKED somebody to provide JUST ONE example of anything the Bible has written in it which could not possibly have come from any mind except the mind of God. What FACT is contained therein? What supernatural wisdom or insight unavailable to the world of man at the time of writing can you give me? You can't give me any because there isn't any. You would have to resort to the fable of the fluffy nether world of "spirits" and "heaven" and "apocalypse" and wild imaginings where nothing can be proved but any nitwit can assert whatever they like.

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