by chron82 41 Replies latest watchtower bible
Yes it is, as the people that wrote it understood it to be in the time and place where they lived.
You're an intelligent individual BTS so I hope you'll understand and forgive me for pressing you a little, but that answer you gave was obscure and evasive.
Can any version of the Bible in use today be called the authentic word of god? Just answer yes or no and then explain why you so answer - your reasons, not those of long dead Israelites from thousands of years ago.
Or not, no obligation . . .
Nic:
I know you were speaking with BTS, but I'd like to respond, too.
BTS (and many other Christians) are content with a faith that works like this: Faith = Scripture + Reason + Science
Many of them will speak candidly about their lack of certainity. Moreover, they will admit their predisposition for believing and how they want to believe. Some describe it as having "the God gene".
IOW, these folks are not Fundamentalists.
1. Do you believe the bible is the authentic word of God or do you believe it is a hoax?
I do, but my version of God is not the usual fundamentalist Christian version. For instance, I have read posts here that are every bit as much the word of God (IMO of course) as any book of the Bible.
2. Why do you feel one way or the other?
Personal revelation and or gut instinct that I still don't completely understand.
3. How sure are you of your belief on a scale of 1 - 10?
I am not at all sure. It's a belief, nothing more. I give it a 1.
4. How would you reply to the Watchtower's list of evidence that they claim proves that the Bible is authentic. In particular:
- Scientific Accurarcy - Historical and Archeological Accuracy - Fulfillment of Prophecies - Candor of Bible WritersI wouldn't. I would leave the reply to people who know much more about it than I, such as Leolaia.
ProdigalSon...I think you have demonstrated that Poe's Law holds just as true for conspiracy theorizing as it does for fundamentalism.
Funny. What part do you find most amusing? The Annunaki? To think, there are still some nut jobs who don't believe we are all alone in the universe....
Thank you all so much for your opinions! I share many of the same thoughts as you, but hearing others always helps to validate my own feelings.
I have done much research in the past to come to my own opinion and I believe the only way you can ever feel reasonably confident of your own feelings is to search out your own answer.
Also, thank you for the Book references. My wife isn't much of a researcher and has been searching for a good book detailing this topic. I'm now looking into "Who Wrote the Bible" and "The Bible Unearthed" thanks to this group. If anyone else has enjoyed other titles, I'd be interested to hear about them.
Thanks again!
Bump!
The thread on the Ark Theme Park made me start thinking about "what the heck were so called Bible writers thinking at the time?!!"
I hope to hear more thoughts. :) Slow day at work today.
The Bible is not a hoax. It is simply a collection of writings held sacred by Jews and Christians. Of course, Jews only believe in the Hebrew Scriptures. Growing up a Witness, I used to think that God, this very old, scary white dude, wrote it down word for word. The authors were mere automatons. The Bible is a resource of very different accounts of genesis, nationhood, a prayer book, prophecies, wisdom literature. It was not canonized into an official body until councils a hundred or years of so after the death of Jesus. Some Middle Eastern religions share the same stories. I came across this recently with Melchizedek. If you are a historian or anthropologist, the story fragments are fascinating.
Basically, these are the special books written within my culture and tradition. I don't believe the Bible is more authentically from God than the Vedic scriptures or Buddhist writings. It makes no sense. To believe the Bible is unique is sheer cultural imperialism. This is very different from the Witness stance. Some of the writings are achingly beautiful and profound. I studied Karen Armstrong's book on God in the Axis religions. Over a relatively short period of time, new religions appeared throughout the world preaching basically the same core beliefs.
I studied New Testament and Oriental Civilizations in college. Since I grew up in the NY area and lived in Manhattan for 40 years, I was exposed to many different cultures. I don't want to worship a God who would slay people for believing the truth of their culture. With a broader perspective, I can believe the hard sciences and Christianity. Altho science is not my forte, I see how evolution could be the mechanism through which God created. Maybe. What I find sad is that we are losing Bible literacy. Once everyone in Western society had a common collection of stories to draw upon in their lives. The Witnesses did expose me to stories.
I wonder how much my personal distaste for the Society led me into a worldly view. It feels like I was propelled out of the Witness stance. I could never see leaving the Witnesses to be a Dawn Bible Student. New Age spirituality annoys me but I respect those who believe in it. It is not my cup of tea. My Witness wounds were so deep I shuddered to study New Testament. I ended up with nightmares. Without college, I don't believe I would learned that it is preferable to ask "hard questions." In fact, critical thinking skills apply to almost all areas of my life now. I am absolutely convinced in my deepest soul that the Witnesses are wrong. Dead wrong. Completely wrong. Emphatically wrong. Yet I want belief in something.
Decades later it is easy to forget what an outsider I was and how extremely narrow my exposure. Fundamentally, though, I never, ever liked the Witnesses. I detested it at two. When are they going to set up nursery schools and youth education separately from adult worship. It is so much easier going with my basic temperament and world view than trying to conform to the very opposite.
Only recently, did I learn that some folks believe that pseudepigraphal writings made it into the canon. This is very interesting.
Paul Tobin:
One evidence that the pastoral epistles were not written by Paul is the fact that the authentic epistles of Paul contained an imminent expectation of the apocalyptic return of Jesus (the parousia) while the pastorals give the impression of settled communities who see their churches existing into the foreseeable future. As evidence of the historical Paul’s belief that Jesus will return within the former’s lifetime or at the latest within the lifetime of some in his congregations, I quoted the following two passages in my article:
I Corinthians 7:29-31 (NRSV)
I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no possessions, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.
I Thessalonian 4:14-17 (NRSV)
For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have died. For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever.
The Corinthian passage obviously tells us that the apostle believed that the time before the return of Jesus is very short. (“the appointed time has grown short”; “the present form of the world is passing away”) The Thessalonian passage confirms this point and indeed showed that Paul believed that it would come either within his lifetime or the lifetime of the contemporaneous recipients of his letters (“that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord”).
That Paul expected an imminent apocalyptic return of Jesus, within the lifetime of his congregation, is also evident in another passage:
I Corinthians 15:51-52 (NRSV)
Listen, I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
That “we will not all die” means that Paul believed that at least some of the original recipients of his letter would still be alive at the sounding of the eschatological trumpet. Taken together with the passage other two passages we have seen, it is quite obvious that Paul was expecting the present world order as he knew it to end either within his lifetime or those of his congregations.
http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2010/09/paul-tobin-responds-to-infidel-delusion.html
I wouldn't mind reading more about this, if anyone has some good links. It's all new to me.
Paul didn't always get it right you know, he voiced his opinion on matters and guess what, soemtimes he was wrong, as in the case of his hopes for the second Coming.
Paul was a very zealous person and as such, his zeal would get the best of him.
Peter addressed such issues in his letter too, when asked why the second coming hadn't happened yet ( as those asking seemed to think that it shoudl have) he said:
2Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.