The two witness rule

by dgp 66 Replies latest jw experiences

Sola Scriptura

To leavingwt:
You said:
Greetings.
Greetings! Thanks for the warm welcome.
May I ask a few questions?
(1) Do the JWs subscribe to 'Sola Scriptura'? (just wondering, since it's your screen name)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura

"Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, "by scripture alone") is the doctrine that the Bible contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness. Consequently, sola scriptura demands that only those doctrines are to be admitted or confessed that are found directly within or indirectly by using valid logical deduction or valid deductive reasoning from scripture. However, sola scriptura is not a denial of other authorities governing Christian life and devotion. Rather, it simply demands that all other authorities are subordinate to, and are to be corrected by, the written word of God...

sola scriptura reflects a careful tension between the perspicuity (clarity) of Scripture necessary for its role as final authority, and the occasional need for its meaning to be revealed by exposition (Hebrews 5:12)...

By contrast, the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox Churches teach that the Scriptures are not the only infallible source of Christian doctrine. For them Scripture is but one of three equal authorities; the other two being Sacred Tradition and the episcopacy".

Based on the above definition, I believe we collectively try to be. Problems for us often arise from the "logical deduction" & "revealed by exposition" parts.

Like early Christians, Modern Christian Leaders sometimes go WAY "beyond what is written". This often happens when they focus to much on trying to "logically deduce" from the Bible, then "Reveal by exposition" things that God chose not to include in it.
(2) The advice you've given above sounds pretty good. Why doesn't the Society direct the publishers in the same manner?
Thank you. The advice is only my personal opinion. Why the Society does not, is not in my realm of knowledge.

From my personal experience:
a) Even when you make it clear to parent(s), they will not in any way bring reproach on the congregation or God by publicly going to the police, many times they still decide not to go, when the Accused is a close friend or family member. (This is a common human trait demonstrated by many Non JWs as well).

b) It's easier for Parents to go the Police when the Accused is a stranger or someone not close to them.
(3) In addition to contacting the Police and the Elders, would it be the loving thing to do to warn other parents within the congregation, so that they may keep their children away from the molester?
Yes.
But those who do the warning must be very careful that the Accused doesn't bring charges of slander against them if their guilt has not been established yet. That's the slippery slop Elders must walk. One most Churches don't dare touch.

Can you name one Major Religion that officially announces warnings of "Accused Child Molesters" to the flock?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence

If the Parents go to the Police 1st and the Child Abuser is arrested on credible evidence, Parents relaying factual information to fellow parents of the Accused arrest and subsequent trial would not be slanderous, because there will be Public Knowledge of the arrest to point to. (At least that how it should work on paper. But Imperfect Humans always get in the way of the Perfect Plan )

Agape,
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Sola Scriptura

“I made an ass of myself.”
- J. F. Rutherford
truthseekeriam

"If the Parents go to the Police 1st and the Child Abuser is arrested on credible evidence, Parents relaying factual information to fellow parents of the Accused arrest and subsequent trial would not be slanderous, because there will be Public Knowledge of the arrest to point to. (At least that how it should work on paper. But Imperfect Humans always get in the way of the Perfect Plan )"
Then why after we went to the authorities were we told by the elders not to speak to anyone about it while the molester was out on bail?
Why were phrases such as "reproach on Jehovah's name"and "causing divisions" brought up?
Why was my husband taken off the attendant list the following month, without a word?
I'm sorry, but we lived it. I did exactly what you all say to do, I went to the authorities first and guess what? We were treated like crap by the elders from that point on. Did they say, "you did the wrong thing?" No... But, we pretty much knew they weren't happy with the order in which we did things. We received zero support! We absolutely wouldn't have believed it if it hadn't happened to us!!
I'm telling you, being totally and completely devastated by finding out your child was abused by a trusted brother and then finding out the religion that you love is nothing what they claim made for some really horrible years. I felt so foolish for putting trust in men.
GLTirebiter

Can you name one Major Religion that officially announces warnings of "Accused Child Molesters" to the flock?
Yes.
Sola Scriptura

To Mary:

You said:
Yes, but as I've already stated, the authority that the Nation of Israel had when conducting a criminal investigation had long passed by Jesus' day. They did not have the legal authority to dole out punishments
1) 1 Timothy 5:19 is written to the Christian Congregation. (thus continuing not ending the long held "Two Witness" Principle).

2) Child Abuse is BOTH a Crime and a Sin;
So Caesar should handle the Crime While the congregation handles the Sin (To Disfellowship or not).

3) The Parents have the number one responsibility and right to protect their children and go to the authorities to stop further abuse. If the Society, CO, Local elder etc takes away that right, then they are scripturally wrong to do so.

Much Respect Mary
Sola Scriptura

To: truthseekeriam
You said:
I'm sorry, but we lived it. I did exactly what you all say to do, I went to the authorities first and guess what? We were treated like crap by the elders from that point on. Did they say, "you did the wrong thing?" No...
I'm so sorry things happened that way.

All I can say is the Elders Gone Wild™ did not handle your case with Love. (There are still Weeds among the Wheat of Christians... Even at some of the highest levels of Christianity).

But all cases don't turn out the way yours did. I have personal knowledge of Elders going that extra mile to protect the congregation. If you have time read about here: Post 18 by me.

When things go right they rarely get advertised. But when things go wrong... well... we hear about here on JWN. (As well we should!) Thus bringing what happens in the dark into the light. That's why I applaud the courage of Barbara Anderson and others like you in bringing the "Facts" to us.

Please read the debate I had with Big Tex here.
(Specifically post 12978 by him. Toward the end he starts off with: "Truthfully? Okay, I'll be very honest. I don't think I've ever posted this anywhere online on any board." He reveals his full story for the 1st time on JWN!) His story will break your heart. But he made it through. I'm sure his courage to tell his horrific experience has touched and encouraged many victims here on JWN.

I look forward to when the following scripture becomes reality for us all.

Revelation 21:4 (Contemporary English Version)

"He will wipe all tears from their eyes, and there will be no more death, suffering, crying, or pain. These things of the past are gone forever."

Agape,
---
Sola Scriptura

“I made an ass of myself.”
- J. F. Rutherford
Sola Scriptura

To: GLTirebiter

Awesome find! (I stand corrected)
This is the first I've ever seen from the Catholic Church.

Is this Official Policy of the entire Catholic Church now? or is this the policy of just the Denver Archdiocese?

Thanks for the info.
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Sola Scriptura

"Accept truth wherever you find it, no matter what it contradicts." - Charles T. Russell
Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence. pp. 8-9 July 1879
Titus

Sola, I have never seen you here before.
Welcome.
wobble

Dear Chris. ( Sola Scriptura),
The problem I have with this from a scriptural point of view is that all the scriptures you quote are not considered in their context.
A typical JW error.
(O.T verses carry no weight for the reasons I stated above)
Matthew 18 is Jesus talking about an adult who has been sinned against sorting it out with 2or 3 witnesses so as to bring an end to the matter.
John is Jesus words about establishing his own credentials in line with Jewish law to satisfy the Pharisees etc.
Timothy is a personal letter ,to Timothy, and the instruction is how Timothy should deal with an Older Man in the newly established house churches.
Not one of the verses you quote has any relevance to how a modern day church should deal with wrongdoing, especially something like Child Abuse.
GLTirebiter

Thanks for the info.
You're welcome.
I remembered hearing this on the news a few months ago, so (with a little help from Google) I was able to find the right link. This is according to the US Council of Catholic Bishops policy, but I will also say that Archbishop Chaput takes it seriously, as he does all aspects of his office. We could use more leaders like him!
Sola Scriptura

To Titus:

Hello Brother!

I've been a lurker for quite a few years, but I’ve only had limited time to actually participate.

Agape

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To GLTirebiter:

Awesome!

We need more Leaders (of ALL faiths) to follow the lead of Archbishop Chaput, and be more proactive in protecting Children.

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To wobble:

You said:

(O.T verses carry no weight for the reasons I stated above)

The scripture at 2 Timothy 3:16 disagrees with your above statement.

While Christians are not under the "Mosaic Law", many of the underlying principles in the O.T. are encouraged to be used in the Modern Christian Congregation.

This is where discernment and willingness to be progressive about certain Congregation Policies come into play.

Paul showed in the following scripture, that the Two Witness Principle (not law), was not dead, and thus still carried weight in the new Christian Congregation.

2 Corinthians 13:1 (Amplified Bible):

“THIS IS the third time that I am coming to you. By the testimony of two or three witnesses must any charge and every accusing statement be sustained and confirmed.”

Even though Child Abuse existed back in Christian Congregation, there is not one explicit scripture that details a procedure for handling it. So Modern Christian Leaders must, to the best of their ability, try to logically deduce what the congregation should do in these matters.

The JWs have chosen to apply the Two Witness Principle as a guiding force for all accusations of sin (no matter what the sin is). (Remember Child Abuse is both a Sin & a Crime).

Over time we have tweaked our policy to make it harder for lying no good predators to skirt the system. Since corroborating evidence (including police dna evidence, court conviction etc) can be used as the "2nd" witness", a lying child abuser can get DF'd on the basis of just the child’s testimony, if the Elders don't interfere with the Parents right & responsibility to have Caesar properly investigate the criminal side of the matter.

Elders, COs, DOs, GB etc, who do harass the victim and their family from going to the police, or make them feel guilty are unloving & simple not following our official established procedures. (Remember Weeds still exist among the Wheat).

To Contentious Lurking Elders:
Click here for more information on things YOU CAN do when your hands are tied from Dfing a slick lying Child Abuser who you FEEL is guilty.

To Lurking Elders Gone Wild™:
Please stop being LAZY and start shepherding the flock.

Shepherd
to guide or guard in the manner of a shepherd
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Sola Scriptura

”We would not refuse to treat one as a brother because he did not believe the Society is the Lord's channel.
If others see it in a different way, that is their privilege. There should be full liberty of conscience.”

WT April 1, 1920, p. 100, 101

The two witness rule

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