Are JW's Dangerous? Youtube Mirror of WTComments video
by OnTheWayOut 23 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Cold Steel
I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, but (except for the blood transfusion issue), I don't see much to throw it into the "cult" category, which is where this video seems to be heading.
Early Christians were denounced for 1) its secrecy; 2) its refusal to mix with others with a differing belief system; and 3) its insistence that it had a monopoly on the truth. JWs, while discouraged from associating with others with different belief systems, are not forced to, particulary from family members. Cults, on the other hand, force disassociation. They also engage in sleep deprivation and repitition that the JWs don't engage in. And though narrow minded and dogmatic, JWs are not all that different than many other sects that tend to be exclusive.
There are some cults where deprogramming would be justifiable. If you attempted it with JWs, though, you'd be risking legal action, big time.
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garyneal
I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, but (except for the blood transfusion issue), I don't see much to throw it into the "cult" category, which is where this video seems to be heading.
As an outsider myself, I can understand how you would feel this way. Truthfully, I too find myself wondering about whether or not this religion should be classified as a cult. However, I have read testimonial from former witnesses both on this site and on freeminds.org that certainly reveal how dangerous this religion can get. Granted, other churches can become just as legalistic and dogmatic and also have similar testimonials from its members.
There are some cults where deprogramming would be justifiable. If you attempted it with JWs, though, you'd be risking legal action, big time.
I think you'd be risking legal action no matter what cult member you tried this tactic with. Have you read Steve Hassan's books on cults? He pointed out that the Cult Awareness Network was sued by the cults for restricting 'freedom of religion' and lost. The cults always hide behind the right to freedom of religion.
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diamondiiz
Cold Steel:
There are several levels of cults, some are more dangerous than others. Cult and religion are also similar in nature. Total submission of gb is one sign of a cult. In most religions, you can still disagree with the leaders and your family will not disown you. If you do this in a JW family, it's a 50-50 chance you will end up talking to an elder. If I said at a family gathering that GB are full of shit and 1914 is nonsense I am willing to bet that most would take offence and my chances are extremely high that I would be invited to an elders' meeting sometime after that dinner get together. They do strongly encourge disassociation from family members who don't agree with it's leaders. They discourge close association with unbelieving family members as these cannot "help" you spiritually. They build walls between their members and outside world and build an ideaology of them vs us. As for deprogramming, how many witnesses need healing after leaving wts organization? Many do. That's why many are here still getting over their past. Many who leave wts still feel guilt, or still have their preconcieved ideas that they will be destroyed at armageddon any day as they're not worthy of god? These ideas are destructive and may not be on the same level as Charles Manson's cult but doesn't make wts any less dangerous. They repeat their dogma over and over, and more you attend their meetings the more likely you're to be controlled by this crap on a subcontious level which exhibits itself in your way of life.
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LostGeneration
Cold Steel, Have you considered what the foremost expert on cults has to say on the subject? JW's fit 90% of these points. Four Aspects of Mind Control (as it relates to people in cults) 1) INFORMATION CONTROL:- Important information which is available to the general public is withheld from members and potential members.
- Deception is the basic feature of all cult recruitment. It is also what keeps people inside cults.
- Information is one of the best weapons against cults.
- In cults information about the cult's history, purposes, doctrines, financial disclosures, methods of dealing with problems, counseling, training, and discipline for offenses are kept as confidentail as possible.
- Only those members with trusted status are allowed inside information.
2) THOUGHT CONTROL:- "Truth" and reality are distorted for those inside the group by subtly changing the definitions of common terms with new meanings through the use of code words, cliches, and slogans.
- Different words make the members feel special and separate from outsiders.
- These different words confuse outsiders who want to understand what the group believes and talks about.
- The change in definitions of significant words keeps even the members from understanding their own beliefs.
- Leaders of cults repress questions by conditioning their members to employ "thought-stopping" statements, prayers, hymns, Bible verses, mantras, tongues or rituals to drown out doubt, questions, anxiety or uncertainty. "I can't think about that." "How can you question (the leaders) after all they have done?" etc. The intention is to stop questions regarding the system or leaders.
- The word "faith" is employed in a negative sense. Members are conditioned to view "faith" in terms of blind submission to the leaders, rather than positive certainity in God's love.
- Members are conditioned to feel guilty for any curiosity about what is going on within the group; curiosity is a lack of faith. (Therefore, even after some people leave a mind control group, they may be afraid to examine information which explains the background of their old belief system.)
- Typically, the word "grace" has a different meaning from the Biblical use. The "God" of the group is also different from the God of the Bible. God is defined by, and eventually becomes the group.
3) EMOTION CONTROL:- Guilt, fear and shame are projected onto the members, prompting blame toward themselves for their depression, lack of understanding, anxiety, or inability to cope, rather than examining the leaders, the group's policies, history, doctrines, scandals, and at times, even crimes.
- Phobic attitudes or behaviors are sometimes noticeable when attempts are made to converse with members regarding their belief in the group or its leaders.
- Fear, anger, rage or repetitious statements which only go in circles keep the members from thinking through to any rational conclusions.
- Fear of confrontation with family is common, resulting in very few people being rescued.
4) BEHAVIOR CONTROL:
- Tight control of behavior secures the leaders' position of authority and importance.
- The behavior control impresses members and outsiders to view the group as especially spiritual or successful.
- The leaders link the required behavior to their special "revelation" of a text of scripture. However the required behaviors are usually superficial controls, affecting appearances and outward activity rather than inward character. These can include grooming, daily activities, career choices, clothing, specific technology, posture, speech mannerisms, food choices, recreation, education, even decisions about marriage, sex and children. (They usually do not deter moral sin.)
- If a person does not conform, he may be urged to become more like an older group member; to follow the leaders' "example".
- OBEDIENCE TO THE HUMAN LEADERS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT LESSON TO LEARN.
- The leaders cannot totally control one's inner thoughts, but if they can command behavior, hearts and minds will usually follow.
- The behavior control isolates the members from society even more effectively.
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LostGeneration
Here is a good thread where a poster has put these points to the test and shown how JWs use ALL of them.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/91207/1/Cults-Steven-Hassans-BITE-model
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ZeusRocks
Good video OTWO. I remember at the last convention I went to 4 years ago here in Perth, they actually discussed sex between married couples from the stage. I was quite amused by them discussin role playing, kinky fetishes (not in detail), and of course oral and anal sex. I recall hearing these things at the kingdom hall quite often, but this was the first time I'd heard them discuss it at a convention. Even though, I personally found it amusing, I do feel it is totally innapropriate to discuss these things around young children.
I also can understand why some people would be hesitant in labelling them a cult, possibly because when we think of cults, we think of Jim Jones, David Koresh etc. But it reminded me of a conversation I'd had with an elder and another family. We were discussing armageddon, and I asked them how they thought Jehovah would protect his people so they are killed in the chaos of it all. Their reply was, that perhaps there would be an announcement at the hall, asking for all Jehovahs Witnesses around to world to leave their homes and congregate into one location or congregate into one location in their respective countries.
To them, it didn't seem unreasonable that if the governing body told them to leave their homes, they would. Just like any other cult leader having that much power over people, that they would blindly do whatever they say.
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OnTheWayOut
While I fully disagree with ya, Cold Steel- hence the video posting, even if it were just a matter of the blood issue, isn't that enough?
Let the children die if the parents have a choice? Let the mother of little children die and deprive those children of their mother when a simple provision could have kept her alive?
My big thing is encouraging pre-teens to get baptized before they know better (to please their parents/elders) then holding them to that act and shunning them if they change their mind. That's just what a confused teen needs- the entire family shunning them.
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dgp
Sorry to upset many a believer with this, but many religions, and many so-called secular beliefs, such as Marxism, are indeed cultic. Have any of you guys though how can it possibly be that a group of SECULAR human beings holds it that Kim Il Sung is the "Eternal President" of North Korea, even though the man has been dead for many years?
No exaggeration: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_President_of_the_Republic
Some time ago, someone posted this:
"When our own thoughts are forbidden, when our questions are not allowed and our doubts are punished, when contacts and friendships outside of the organization are censored, we are being abused for an end that never justifies its means. When our heart aches knowing we have made friendships and secret attachments that will be forever forbidden if we leave, we are in danger. When we consider staying in a group because we cannot bear the loss, disappointment and sorrow our leaving will cause for ourselves and those we have come to love, we are in a cult."
Deborah Layton, Jonestown survivor. (Jim Jones; People's Temple)Ms. Layton should know what she is talking about, right?
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dgp
For someone outside, it is sometimes difficult to tell whether the witness who comes to your door is personally dangerous, or whether it's the ideas that are dangerous.
In my heart and mind, there is no question that the ideas are dangerous. I don't need to do more than mentioning the fact that blood transfusions are forbidden, that you're encouraged NOT to get an education, and, further, that you're encouraged to believe that you shouldn't save for old age because "the end is near".
I have no doubt that some people in the organization are dangerous, too. On another thread that I started myself (http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/196746/2/Captives-of-a-Concept, it became clear to me that the leaders of the WT are fully aware that they are lying when they say that, from Jesus on, there was a long line of "outstanding Christians" who had the same religion as today's JW's. I wouldn't believe that men who can lie this way, and who know full well how decisions are made by a group of men, not by a sudden beam of holy spirit, cannot be considered dangerous.
From a certain perspective, sorry, even the individual witness who knocks on your door is dangerous. When they were trying to convert me, no one ever told me I would be asked to cut ties with my dear friends and family, because they would be "worldly". What's more, when I said that everyone in my family knew I had gone to a Kingdom Hall, the witness in question said there was no reason why I should have mentioned that. So, if someone dresses up, is very polite, and comes to your door to offer a "free Bible study" hides such information, should my relatives, for example, not consider him dangerous?
If the kind gentleman who knocks on your door is a pedophile who got away with it because no one could produce two witnesses to the fact, should I consider him dangerous?
I am aware that the witness in question believes she was bringing me into "the Truth". I know this and understand it very well. Thanks to this forum, and others, such as JWFacts and Freeminds, I know better than to simply throw mud at you people. But, different points of view are valid, right?
The IDEAS need to be discussed openly and outright lies need to be exposed. That way, good and well-meaning people will not be seen as a risk to anyone.