Can you "fornicate" with your marriage mate? I've heard the WTBTS says that you can. Is this true?

by ultrabimbo 54 Replies latest jw friends

  • Pistoff
    Pistoff

    1. I assume you are a male; most males, me included, have no idea of this subject. Why does the WT even have to comment about rape? Do they doubt that it occured? Do they not trust a woman when she says she was raped? If she is willing to take it to the police, and undergo questioning, why in the world are the elders even involved?

    2. Except that "resist" doesn't mean what critics pretend it means. If a man seeks sex with a woman and she makes absolutely no statement or gesture of 'resistance', is it rape? It seems better for an unwilling woman to make her unwillingness unambiguous, no? Would it be better for her to 'resist' or be 'unresisting'?

    Really, you must be kidding with this. Rape is sex against a persons will; if a woman says no, and the man does not stop, that is rape. The degree of resistance will vary with each woman, that seems obvious. If a woman says NO, and the man pushes ahead, that is the legal definition of rape.

  • Elder-Patrol
    Elder-Patrol

    "Kidding"? No, its not a joking matter.

    Likely The Watchtower commented on rape to discourage readers from ostracizing an innocent victim according to some outdated idea. In the 1970s (and still today) many backward parts of the world would ignorantly consider rape to have essentially ended the life of even a good victim!

    Here in this forum, WT quotes are too often seen through an urbane prism rather than through the less-sophisticated eyes of rural readers in developing lands.

    So what were WT readers told?
    "Hey, if a woman resists her rapist, then she isn't a whore and you shouldn't treat her like she did anything wrong."

    Comments like that weren't needed because JWs were/are mean, but because the religion drew and draws from an intercultural mass of humanity, some of which were in fact grossly misogynistic.

    Bringing the discussion back to what most here are used to...
    It's obvious that a woman who says "no" has resisted, and a man who ignores that and proceeds with sex acts commits "rape". And it's beyond obvious that resistance is not always possible (especially involving so-called "roofies").

    Matters aren't always so cut-and-dried in practice. Globally (and in Europe/USA), I'd guess JWs want the best for their young women (and middle aged and old). Sadly, I have spoken with parents and with naive girls who did not quite agree to sex but who were certainly not forced into sex. Should such a girl be told that she was raped?

    Or should she be comforted and consoled and taught ways to unambiguously communicate her future unwillingness to engage in sex? What about the second or third time she has sex even though she did not explicitly disagree or agree with it?

    A woman who resists sexual advances hasn't committed fornication even if she is raped. She shouldn't be ostracized, but she should also be interested in making her unwillingness unambiguous. It's a disservice to tell a young girl otherwise.

  • Stealth
  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut
    Ray Franz's later article later made it clear that some Elders were using earlier statements in the WT to disfellowship those who practiced oral sex.

    They were just jealous because their wives wouldn't do it.

    He can step forward and remind us himself (if he wants to) but one poster on here said he provided oral sex to his (now EX) wife and she confessed to the elders that he forced it on her. She wasn't tied to the bed, didn't object at the time, nor did she deny herself the happy ending, but he forced her.

    That's what WTS calls fornication- one marriage mate complaining about it.

  • Pistoff
    Pistoff
    Matters aren't always so cut-and-dried in practice. Globally (and in Europe/USA), I'd guess JWs want the best for their young women (and middle aged and old). Sadly, I have spoken with parents and with naive girls who did not quite agree to sex but who were certainly not forced into sex. Should such a girl be told that she was raped?

    Or should she be comforted and consoled and taught ways to unambiguously communicate her future unwillingness to engage in sex? What about the second or third time she has sex even though she did not explicitly disagree or agree with it?

    A woman who resists sexual advances hasn't committed fornication even if she is raped. She shouldn't be ostracized, but she should also be interested in making her unwillingness unambiguous. It's a disservice to tell a young girl otherwise.

    Really, I have no idea what you are on about.

    The information about a 'christian' woman's need to SCREAM or physically resist was published in the US; it applies to US views, laws and customs.

    You are making this about the WT being sensitive to foreign customs; this is a red herring argument.

    And you are implying that witnesses or others might suggest to a girl she call rape something it wasn't; you are turning the argument, and the situation, on it's head.

    The situation is that the WT has told many women that they did not resist or resist enough, and are guilty of fornication.They have foisted guilt on them over this matter.

    The fact is that for years the WT mandated, through de facto prosection via DF'ing, the idea that a woman must scream and physically resist, and implanted the idea that a woman might be guilty of fornication if she did not resist enough.

    Forget custom, or foreign country views; take the US only, US publication.

    The WT for years pursued a policy identical to the mosaic law, and as recently as 2008 stated that they think if a woman does not physically resist, she might be guilty of fornication, that that is a reasonable view.

    Who can find that quote for me? I think it was JR Brown.

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