Just curious...how do JW's who became Catholics deal with the corrupt history of the church?

by gubberningbody 22 Replies latest jw friends

  • garyneal

    Alice, how do you feel about being a part of a religion that at one time said that Michael the Archangel and his Cherubs were the Pope and his Bishops?

    12:7. And there was war In heaven.—Between the two ecclesiastical powers, Pagan Rome and Papal Rome.
    Michael.—"Who as God," the Pope.—B275; C62.
    And his angels.—The Bishops. The following is the reply given in the Catholic catechism to the question, "Who are the successors of the Apostles?" Ans.« "The bishops who are rightly consecrated, and are in communion with the head of the Church, the Pope."
    [ Fought against] TO WAR WITH the dragon.—Attempted to get the temporal power away from the civil rulers.— Rev. 2:12.

    The Finished Mystery p. 188

    Back on topic, I remember when I was out looking for a church because of what I found out about the society. I remember thinking that it would be hard indeed to find one without a 'past' or one that taught 100% as close to the Bible as possible. It wasn't long before I came to the realization that if I was out seeking a perfect church, I'd never find it.

  • ziddina

    Ah, Gubberning Body, you're joking, right???

    Let's try it this way... "I've been a Jehovah's Witness for many years now. Sure, I know there are many failed prophecies, wherein the Watchtower Society claimed to have "divine inspiration" from God but turned out to be false prophets; and I know that many peoples' lives were destroyed because they sold everything and quit their jobs because of those false prophecies; and I know there are many people whose families have been broken up and destroyed due to the "shunning" practice; and I know that there are some who have even been driven to suicide by the "shunning" practice; and I know there are plenty of pedophiles within the Watchtower Society; and I know that the Watchtower Society has deliberately instituted internal policies that protect pedophiles and castigate and demonize their victims; and I know there were - and are - many young men in prison due to the Watchtower Society's rigid, unloving and unyielding stance on "alternative service"; and I know there have been many, many children who needlessly died due to the blood transfusion issue; and I know there were many people who died when all they needed was an organ transplant; and all those people in Malawi who were tortured, raped, murdered, and their homes and fields burned....

    But I'M not a part of THAT history!!!"

    Now, try it out for Catholics. The only difference is the length of time that the particular religion has existed; Catholics, around 1,800 years; JWs, around 130 years...

    Just give the Watchtower Society more time...


  • gubberningbody

    The problem I see with a JW who goes Catholic or goes for any other religion making the same claim that JWs is that these simply haven't learned their lesson from their involvement with JW's.

    There is NO organization on this planet that speaks for God.

    The way of truth is now and has always been the path not of a group, but of the individual.

    Every group will poison the path.

    (sometimes I think I'm talking to children who haven't learned to read or speak particularly well... Not one person seems to have understood the problem, but then again if they did, they'd never have gone for another religion...)

    Honestly, once I found out that some went Catholic, my opinion of them changed to....

    "So these cult members switched cults!...They are still mentally diseased!"

  • ziddina

    Well, if one wants to sip from the original well, Catholicism is much more ancient than the JWs... It dates back as close to the time when Jesus supposedly lived, as any other Christian religion on earth today... Whoops! With the possible exceptions of Gnostic Christianity, and the Egyptian version of Christianity - its name esccapes me, right now...

    HaH!! I remembered!!! "COPTIC Christianity"!!! Originated in Egypt, and still uses an ancient language that was in use around the time of [??] "Christ"...

    Besides, there are many different reasons to join another Christian church...

    But I understand your frustration, tho mine takes a slightly different form. I cannot understand why people would worship a "Johnny-come-Lately" Middle Eastern 'god' that is only around 3,500 years old...

    When there are vastly older deities around... Why they cannot see that the TRUE deity - IF there really is one, wink, wink - would be the OLDEST deity, not the YOUNGEST one...

    Eh. People will be people. And many people want some form of "religion" in their lives. At least JWs who become Catholics can still talk to atheists like you and atheist/Neo-PolyTheists like me...


  • gubberningbody

    Yeah, zid... I'm there... I work with a hindu lady and I'm pretty sure I'm an informal Shiva devotee...

    Shiva, the destroyer... She/He is (both elements are present) thought of as a destroyer, but the truth is creativity and rebirth come through acts of destruction...

    As the Nataraj, Shiva is shown in the Anandatandava- the dance of Bliss. Even in Indian dance today a tandava has the following elements:

  • ‘Shrishti’ – creation, evolution
  • ‘Sthiti’ – preservation, support
  • ‘Samhara’ – destruction, evolution
  • ‘Tirobhava’ – illusion
  • ‘Anugraha’ – release, emancipation, grace
  • In Shiva’s form as Nataraj, all these elements are present: they are the 5 acts of Shiva. First he is surrounded by flames. These flames represent wisdom and truth- that which sheds light. In the upper right hand, Shiva holds the drum known as damaru which represents the creative input of the universe. From the stillness comes the first sound, the rhythm that accompanies Shiva’s dance. It is the pulsation of the universe -Spanda. I have also read that the drum being shaped like two triangles with their points touching represent shiva and shakti and their relationship which manifests the material world. The drum is the primordial sound that emanates from the stillness.

    Shiva’s upper left hand holds a flame representing destruction, dissolution or dissolving. Notice how both the upper left and the upper right hand are on the same line so that creation and destruction are both equal to each other. The second right hand is in the form of a mudra called Abayamudra- the non-harming mudra. It can be interpreted as showing Shiva as a protector- one that you can take refuge in. The second left hand is crossing the heart and the hand is pointing down to the lifted foot. It reminds us that the heart has the power to remind us of Grace. The lifted foot represents anugraha- the revelatory power of Grace. It is in the forefront which shows us that it is more primary and holds the greatest significance."

    In this particular incarnation my role is to tear down, break apart, analyse and apostasize. That is my fundamental nature.

  • ziddina

    If I remember correctly, Shiva's a guy... Part of a triad or trinity that includes Brahma and Vishnu...

    Perhaps you're referring to Kali?? She has a destructive aspect, as well as a life-oriented aspect... Actually, I think she's also a triad or trinity, that includes [???] Lakshmi and Durga...

    But if you want to reach far, far back in time, check out the "Acheulean Goddess" - found, ironically, in Israel...

    She's at least 230,000 years old, and may be as old as 800,000 years old. She's basically an "Earth Mother", which type of deity has been worshipped - and is still being worshipped - in many forms around the earth, for eons...


  • gubberningbody

    Shiva is both, or rather, Kali is his consort.. What's represented above is him as the Lord of the Dance...He's dancing the Nataraja...


    "Shiva (also Siva) (pronounced /'?i?v?/ ; Sanskrit: ???, Siva; IPA: ['?i??] ; meaning "Auspicious one"), is a major Hindudeity, and the Destroyer or transformer of the Trimurti, the Hindu Trinity of the primary aspects of the divine. [ 2 ] In the Shaiva tradition of Hinduism, Shiva is seen as the Supreme Being. In the Smarta tradition, he is regarded as one of the five primary forms of God. [ 3 ]"

    "Kali (Sanskrit: ???? , Bengali: ???? , both Kali ), also known as Kalika (Bengali: ?????? , Kalika ), is the Hindugoddess associated with eternal energy. The name Kali comes from Kala which means black, time, death, lord of death, Shiva. Kali means "the black one". Since Shiva is called Kala - the eternal time, Kali, his consort, also means "the Time" or "Death" (as in time has come). Hence, Kali is considered the goddess of time and change."

    I think there's some really interesting and profound symbolism in hinduism and I plan on reading more...

  • ziddina

    Ahhh... The hermaphroditic deities... [Is that the correct term???] The Aborigines of Austrailia have one or more - the only one I know of, at this point in time, is the "Rainbow Serpent God/Goddess", which can be male, female, or both; depending on which tribe you talk to...

  • gubberningbody

    Yes, you could call it that, but actually the forms are distinct inso far as these are coherent in purpose. A left hand is not a right hand, but these complement each other. I think traditional religious people get distracted by the images and want to quicky conclude that the origination of these "deities" was somehow "primitive" and "unsophisticated" and monotheism is the apex. I think these personified the musings on history and origins as well as psychology and philosophy into concrete symbols which could then be thought about by the sages in the same manner as do mathematicians when dealing with their own symbols.

  • asilentone

    Well I am not a catholic fan at all. I would not date catholics. I guess I am programmed like that, you gubberning body are also programmed by the borg.

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