My daughter asked me this today.

by thenoblelodge 57 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • PSacramento
    The issue isn't "protection", it is suffering.

    Most want God to protect them from suffereing and when God doesn't, they want to know why.

    Why does God allow a baby in Africa to be born with AIDS, suffer pain every moment it lives, and die covered in flies and mud after a few years of wretched existence? And why does he allow that (or similar) scenarios to repeat literally billions of times for uncounted milennia?

    Indeed, a very valid question.How do we reconcile a God of love with a God that seems to lack compassion, that is what you are asking right?

    Actually, more to the point, why allow a world where the poor decisions of "person X" cause suffering, as outlined above, to hundreds or thousands or millions or billions of people?

    The world was given to US to do what we "like" with it for an "X" period of time, we have the world we "want".

    If he were really a God of justice, then the "poor use" of "free will" (a topic for another day) on one person's part would cause bad consequences for that person only.

    Hmmm, an interesting view, would the use of "good free will" only effect said person too?

    Why does the African AIDS baby suffer? How is justice served by allowing that human, who has never had the ability to even comprehend the topic of "free will", much less exercise it, to live literally every moment in excruciating pain before dying?

    I can't tell you HOW MANY times I have anguished over that very question in one for or another, truly I can't because I have lost count.

    I don't have the answer for you, MY question was answered and I accepted it, but that has ZERO to do with you and YOUR question.

    I suggest you "take it up with God" because only God can tell you why, just be forewarned that you MAy not like the answer.

  • superpunk

    I think you may be missing the point, most people that want God to step in and fix things have their OWN idea of who and what God is, OR they don't believe in God and are trying to make a point, others are asking a genuine question and looking for a genuine answer because they truly want to know why.

    I think you're missing the point, that your question is meaningless - rather, it is misdirection - making the issue "Who is God" rather than "Why doesn't God help us". People want THE God to step in and fix things, if he is THE God then he will obviously fix it better than any of us could even imagine. But the fact is, even if he exists, he doesn nothing that has any meaningful impact on our world, much less does anything to actually help anyone or anything on this earth avoid suffering. So there are a few possible conclusions;

    1. He has his reasons for refusing to help us. Maybe he's teaching us lessons, maybe he is detained, maybe he is impotent, maybe he is incompetent, maybe he is spiteful. The explanations for his inaction by his alleged followers are as numerous as the sands, and all seem to have deep logical flaws.

    2. He simply does not care about us.

    3. He does not exist.

    You obviously subscribe to some version of conclusion 1. The only form of question 1 which I personally think is a satisfactory answer is that he is incapable of helping us, maybe because he lacks the power or is incompetent. If he has the power, but refuses, then he is malevolent. So if he exists, something must be keeping him from helping us. Conclusion 2 is hurtful, but logical. Conclusion 3 seems most palatable. No complex or hurtful explanations for his inaction are necessary. And since his existence or nonexistence doesn't seem to impact us either way, it is probably best to just suppose he does not exist - the default position, the position we would all take if our ancestors hadn't invented Russell's teapot millenia ago.


    Once we believe in the concept of God we take on certain obligations towards Him. We then have an expectation that he has obligations towards us. This is how relationships work. In an attempt to understand what our obligations are we ask questions. The answers often fail to make sense. They leave the questioner unsatisfied and short changed.

    They search the pages of the bible in the hope the answer will be found there. Jesus' miracles seem like half a loaf and something fishy. More contradictions are found, so the bible is closed and put aside, apart from a few carefully selected texts.

    At this point the seeker of truth is told that God's ways are unknowable; too far above us; unreachable; a divine mystery. Porky Pie in the sky perhaps?

  • PSacramento

    Superpunk, I think I am not making myself clear and I apologise for that.

    Maybe an example:

    Let us take THIS verison of God - the OT God that judges all and has mercy on who he wishs and shows wrath on who he wishes.

    That God decided that, as of right NOW, no more suffereing, period, So God steps in and TAKES OVER so you, dear SP, now have a choice ( you really don't but lets pretend you do), do EVERYTHING God says, period or Brun in Hell for all eternity.

    You ok with that "choice"? that you don't really have because God has already decided what he is Gonna do with you anyways?

  • superpunk

    Superpunk, I think I am not making myself clear and I apologise for that.

    You're being perfectly clear, your line of questioning just fails to address this particular topic.

    I would never worship the OT God again. My morality is above his, therefore we can conclude he is not THE God. Even if he was, he can get bent because I don't want anything to do with him. But again that does nothing for the thread topic.



    I would never worship the OT God again.

    A lot of people find the Over the Top God too much to stomach.

    Why not try the softly spoken son Jesus? He might even turn some water into wine for you.

  • PSacramento
    You're being perfectly clear, your line of questioning just fails to address this particular topic.

    Actually it does, you see, people want God to stop suffering and such, but it is THEIR version of God that they want to do this, just ask any JW.

    My point is that, becareful what you wish for, you just might get it.

    I don't ask God to stop the suffering or to interfer, I just ask God, through Jesus, to give ME the strength to do it since deep down I know WE can.

    Suffering exits because we as people, are "broken", we know what is right , we know how to fix things and yest we don't and only with God's strength and love can we do it.

    It's NOT up to God to fix our mess, it's up to US, the fact that God is still there for us is, in of itself, an amazing thing.

    MY 2cents, take it for what it is worth, of course itis only an opinion and as full of crap as everyone elses, so...

  • witnessdater

    One way of answering your question is to first state your question another way: Why does there have to be evil? In essence, this is the question you pose. If you only draw the line at children, why? Aren't innocents of all ages having terrible tragedies inflicted upon them through no apparent fault of their own?

    But if there were no evil, there would be no good, and no differentiation between anything being good or bad. We would be moral-less animals who could not recognize the difference. It almost becomes a pointless question. We have to have free will, and God cannot stop all evil from happening. Not because He isn't able, but because I think He wants us to love Him for the right reason, which is pure love thru faith. As opposed to fear (which is why a lot of JWs "love" Him). I used to ask myself the question "Why can't God show up in the sky everywhere at all times, all over the earth, to show us who He is, and to warn us to behave? We could videotape it and everything" The answer is that if He did that, it would be a form of coercion, or making him obey Him out of fear, instead of love and the recognition that He knows what is best for us. And believe me, even if that happened, there would still be those in the world denying it was true, just as they deny that many of the things in the Bible happened. I do not want my children to obey me out of fear, I want them to obey me out of love and learn that if they do not do what I say, sometimes they hurt themselves or have an adverse outcome for themselves. Then they say "Well, Dad was right, maybe he is pretty smart. I should have done it his way, and I will next time." We learn from pain, and sometimes "evil" causes pain.

    Check out children with CIPA, who cannot feel pain, cannot cry and cannot sweat. There are about 100 at any given time in the world and have an average lifespan of 25 years. Their parents' sole prayer is that one day their child will feel pain.

    The evil that brutally kills innocent people like you described comes out of Godless thinking in my view. This is not to say that some "Christians" of the past haven't done brutal things to people, except to say they weren't really Christians. Never examine a group from the bad that comes from it. Except for atheists. "Bad" and "evil" are what naturally come from a worldview where there is no moral law-giver higher than ourselves. See Stalin and Hitler. They have a view that anything goes, because there is no God. Then they make their arguments from a moral point of view, borrowing from where the morals originally came, while at the same time trying to disprove it.

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