Thought Control (A simple test for JW's)

by TD 143 Replies latest jw friends

  • TD

    Alice: You do understand what the term "second advent" means?

    "Do you believe in the second advent of the Lord?" I asked the young man who came to the door. "Christ's second advent was realized in 1914," he answered. In astonishment, I told him that was impossible. "You should read this book," he said handing me The Harp of God."

    "In the year 606 B.C. Zedekiah was overthrown. He was taken a prisoner, carried away to Babylon, and Nebuchadnezzar established in the earth the first universal empire and the gentile times dated from that time forward. The length of the gentile times is definitely fixed in the Scriptures as a period of seven symbolic times of 360 years each, or a total of 2,520 years. This period beginning with the year 606 B.C. necessarily must end in 1914 A.D. God had declared that he would overturn the right of the descendants of Abraham to rule, thereby permitting the gentiles to have an uninterrupted sway until he should come whose right it is. The one whose right it is is the great Messiah, Christ Jesus the Lord. It would be reasonable to expect him to be present some time before he would take unto himself his great power to reign. His presence beginning in 1874, he has carried on his harvest work from 1878 forward, but has not interrupted the gentile dominion until that dominion should end. The end of the gentile rule, therefore, would mark necessarily the end of the present order; therefore, the end of the world. We should expect, then, to find 1914 as the beginning of the end of the old world or order of government. And that this would take place during the presence of the Lord he definitely stated."

    You've already quoted the Proclaimers book on this thread stating that the year for Christ's presence wasn't moved from 1874 to 1914 until 1943!

  • besty
    Once he had denied objective reality, his mental conquest was complete and he was no longer truly the master of his own mind.

    AIW? Denying objective reality?


    It doesn't indicate that 1914 would be a year identified for some sort of apocalypse that would annihilate the wicked. It states that 1914 would usher in the onset of the signs described in Matthew 24:7, 8. It's official beginning in 1874 is clearly explained in Thy Kingdom Come.

    The Harp Of God.

    [431] When the gentile dominion legally ends, the order being a wicked one under the supervision of Satan, the god of the evil world (2 Corinthians 4:3,4), and all these nations lying in the wicked one (1 John 5:19), it would be expected that the gentile kingdoms and nations would strive to hold on to their power. But when the proper time should come it would also be expected that the Lord, whose right it is, would take over the affairs into his own hands. And so he said: "We give thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."—Revelation 11:17,18.

    [432] It will be observed that the Lord does not do all of his work in a twenty-four-hour day, but that gradually he performs his sovereign will. Specifically answering the question concerning the end of the world during the time of his presence, Jesus said: "Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes [literal and symbolic—revolutions] in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows." (Matthew 24:7,8) Exactly on time, at the end of the gentile dominion, at the beginning of the end of the world, nation rose against nation and kingdom against kingdom in the most devastating war that man ever dreamed would come to the world. There followed in its wake a great pestilence, the Spanish influenza, which swept the earth; and the famine is still raging amongst many peoples and kindreds of the earth; and there have been revolutions, as well as many literal earthquakes in various parts of the earth. And these, said the Master, mark the beginning of the end of the world, which takes place during the time of his presence. The evidence here is overwhelming, proclaiming his presence and the end of the world.

    They clearly stated the same thing here in 1891. The era prior to 1914 was characterized by an increasing of knowledge (preparation for the last days) and had its official beginning in 1799 which makes perfect sense according to their calculations. 1914 would culminate into a time of great trouble.

    1891 Thy Kingdom Come 1st Ed.

    This Time of the End, or day of Jehovah preparation beginning A. D. 1799 and closing A. D. 1914, though characterized by a great increase of knowledge over all past ages, is to culminate in the greatest time of trouble the world has ever known; but it is nevertheless preparing for and leading into that blessed time so long promised, when the true Kingdom of God, under the control of the true Christ, will fully establish an order of government the very reverse of that of Antichrist. Page 59

    The typical Jubilee cycles pointed out A. D. 1874 as the date of our Lord's return; and yet the date was therein so ingeniously hidden, as to make its discovery impossible until the "Time of the End." And this testimony was made doubly strong by proofs from two standpoints-the Law and the Prophet-the two being entirely independent of each other, and yet equally clear and convincing. Page 125

    All of this makes perfect sense to me. I don't observe that the future refinement of 1914 as the official date of Christ's second advent is anything to criticize or that what was stated in the Harp of God conflicts with future publications.

  • Mad Dawg
    Mad Dawg

    Umm…. Alice? Do you realize that you are quoting from the 1921 edition of the Harp of God? Please, please, pretty please quote from pre-1914 books that show that they said that Jesus was coming back invisibly in 1914. We all know that the WTS claims they made such predictions, please show us that the predictions were made. After all, if the WTS says they did, then you should have problem finding the quote. Right?


    The fallacy you're pointing out isn't anything that underscores that the early Bible students or Jehovah's Witnesses in latter decades are not truth sincere seekers.

  • SweetBabyCheezits

    Which fallacy would you like him to point out then?

  • Mad Dawg
    Mad Dawg

    Fallacy? Do you deny that the WTS says that Russell and crew looked forward to the invisible coming of Jesus? What is the basis for the WTS saying this? If pre-1914 quotes can be found to support the WTS assertion, then they are telling the truth. If none can be found, then the WTS is a liar. It really is that simple. If the WTS were to claim that Mr Russell was Asian, they would be lying. Facts are what they are.

    Why are you quoting from a Rutherford book when it is Russell’s writings that are in question? I have no problem in granting that Russell and his Bible students were sincere. Or that Dubbers since have been and are sincere. However, the WTS is lying about Russell’s teachings. It is that black and white. Are you saying that the WTS is honest about Russell? If so, then produce the proof.

    Or, is your last post a tacit admission that the WTS is wrong about Russell?

    [Edited for clarity]

  • diamondiiz

    From what appears is that Russell was believing his own crap but it's hard to say to what extend. Russell was running a business and it does appear that he placed his money in a printing business and kept it safe from Mrs. Russell (Reslight, if you have any Russell court transcripts please let me know) as it appeared his future interest in his marriage to Maria wasn't favorable. It's hard to be certain what he thought but these are just observations about Russell dealings. Russell like GB today talked about the nearness of the end but never had a problem of investing at the present time. His bank account may have been small but every possible need was covered by his charity - the watch tower. As 1914 was approaching, Russell seemed to make it sound that the end may not happen but that was just a possibility and that may be due to him realizing the nearness of the date and needing to extend the years of his business as his existence and fame was time limited just as wts is today thus they (gb) need to keep changing doctrines that may allow for them (gb) to exist longer without acknowledging being wrong. As 1914 approached Russell was getting more and more letters as to the concecrated going to heaven so he had to act, and started to make 1914 as a possibility but not necessarily the date. Looking at WT articles dealing with 1914 prior to 1914 it does seem that he was getting more and more vague or less confident of 1914 that he once was. Another difference back then was people were able to reject the chronology and it appears that people could have had a freedom to discuss ideas not like today where one cannot question GB or WTS outloud without a possibility of being DF. Here are some older quotes.

    Wt 1909, Dec 15

    While our faith and hopes would be equally clear and logical whether this age ends in October, 1914, or a century later, nevertheless our expectation that "Gentile Times" will conclude October, 1914, undoubtedly has a stimulating effect upon our hearts and influences all of life's interests and helps to "wean" us from earthly joys and ambitions and to set our affections on things above!

    WT 1910 Oct 15

    What may we expect by October, 1914, the date of the termination of Gentile times? Let us not speculate, but let us keep awake and mark the stately steppings of our present Lord amongst the affairs of mankind--leading onward to the inauguration of the glorious Kingdom of the Son of God

    WT 1910 Dec 15

    We admit, as we have always done, that "We walk by faith and not by sight--that our chronology is not indisputable --that our opinion of it is fallible--that it is not clear to us just how all of the "little flock" can pass into death so speedily! Nevertheless, we rejoice in faith and love and zeal. And this year's Report shows that the dear friends everywhere are of one mind and of one heart on the subject. They have accomplished this year exploits in the publishing of the Truth which put all other years in the shade in many particulars. The sentiment of all seems to accord with our own--that the chronology (and the prophetic times and seasons which so wonderfully interlock with it and seem to prove it) has brought great joy and refreshment, even if later on it should appear that we have not located the end of the Times of the Gentiles exactly. Their end is surely near, if not on October 1st, 1914, as we still believe.

    WT 1911 Aug 1

    in 2,520 years from B.C. 606--October, A.D. 1914, the close of the Gentile Times. If any be disposed to dispute the exactness of these figures we need have no quarrel, but simply say that any difference in the calculation must of necessity be but small--possibly one year, possibly twenty years--but in so long a period how trifling would be such a variation.

    WT 1913 Nov 15

    Another letter received inquired respecting the proper treatment to be given to a member of the Class who insisted on opposing the chronology and denouncing all faith in October, 1914, either as respects the gathering of the Church or the inauguration of the world's great Time of Trouble. Our reply may be applicable in other cases. It is to the effect that nobody should be specially encouraged in such an opposition; for a bad spirit is always objectionable, injurious. However, we should not denounce those who in a proper spirit express their dissent in respect to the date mentioned and what may be there expected; nor should we feel aggrieved toward them. We should recognize the individual rights of all, and treat everybody according to the Golden Rule. Nor should we feel at liberty to express
    our views more dogmatically than we would think right for others to do in expressing their views.

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    Don't be sucked in by Alice. She hasn't talked about the actual subject for the entire thread and some of you haven't noticed and are following her lead. This is a primary tactic taught to you while you were members.

    If you want to learn how to discuss a subject with your family, this is where you can practice and hone up your skills. Ask yourself ... what is the point of this thread? How has Alice avoided it? What can you learn from this that you can apply in your discussions with your Dubbies?




    Mad Dawg, I noticed you defending intelligent design over atheistic evolution. What belief system do you adhere to?

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