New Book: Jehovah is Jesus! Not Michael.

by Cold Steel 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • snowbird

    This puts the opening chapter of the book of Hebrews in even better perspective.

    That should be Psalm 8.


  • PSacramento

    Ah, Psalm 8:5, that makes sense.

    Elohim was used in reference to GOD, gods, Angels:

    1) (plural)

    a) rulers, judges

    b) divine ones

    c) angels

    d) gods

    2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)

    a) god, goddess

    b) godlike one

    c) works or special possessions of God

    d) the (true) God

    e) God

  • PSacramento

    I really don't have that many issues with her POV, far from it, it does "explain" a few things and for many, the Trinitarian "beginnings" are there too.

    The thing is that, and I haven't read the book so I am going on "assumption", Jesus is UNIQUE and to "bunch" him up with another 70 "gods" is, well, debatable at best and kind of ignoringmost of the NT.

    IF Elohim is GOD and Jesus is YHWH, the only begotten Son that is God and the others were created vis YHWH and as such are created beings and NOT God in Nature, but "gods" in potential as per their creation, then I can "live" with that.

  • zombie dub
    zombie dub

    option 2: the bible is all made up.

    it explains a lot - admit it.

  • PSacramento

    ALL made up?

    Well, that is a BIG IF, no?

    We know that it was NOT ALL made up, we just have to be more attentive to what is history, story, legend, parable, folktales, and so forth.

    We also need to remember WHO wrote it and WHY and that the opinions stated don't actaully have to be made doctrines and can be just that, personal opinions.

  • tec

    Yes... and the world needs yet another option of who a pre-existent Jesus could be?

    Maybe we do.

    Maybe when it becomes so confusing and dizzying with too many pov's, people will simply take the words Son of God at face value. And then concentrate more on listening to Him, rather than bickering over him.

    (I'm not snipping at anyone here. But at all the people who spend so much time doing just that - I used to be one of them)


  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Sorry, as stated, it was Psalms 8:5, and Barker has discussed much of what many of you are asking. Her point, though, is that traditionally there was much more to Hebrew worship than there is today, and that according to early Hebrew sources and early Christian sources, Yehweh is the Son of God, not the main God or Elyon/Elohim. I used the example of Jehovah as Judge and Jesus as judge. John said that the Father judgeth no man, but has committed all judment to the Son." (John 5:22) Jesus equated Himself with the Great I Am in front of the chief priests, who became angry to the point of wanting to stone Jesus. Even Zachariah, in Zechariah 12:10, quotes the Lord (Jehovah) as saying, "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and supplications and they shall look on me whom they have pierced..."

    Again, he uses the term "me."

    Now why is Jesus Jehovah? According to the scriptures, when Adam transgressed, Elyon withdrew from mankind, with whom He had been intimate. Since He could no longer deal with Mankind, an intercessor had to be found. That intercessor was Jehovah, or Jesus as He was known in mortality. It was Yehweh who appeared to Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, and to Moses and the rest. Yehweh was "the Lord" of Hosts, or armies, but generally He was know as "the Lord." When Jesus was born into mortality, He also was known as "Lord."

    When Jesus finally redeems the world, He will present it back to His Father, redeemed and glorified. At that point, His work will be complete. Men will be redeemed and glorified.

    Another example? All men will be physically resurrected. John says that when we see God "we shall be like Him for," he says, "we shall see Him as He is." Who is God? Is it the Father or the Son? In the resurrection, we are Christ's and belong to Him because of the Atonement. Jesus also gives John his vision on Patmos. But why Jesus and not Jehovah, if they are not the same?

    These traditions are scattered throughout both the Old and New Testaments. Jesus was the answer. He was the mediator between Man and God. Oh, and Barker has a chapter on the Gnostic accounts of Jesus as Jehovah. Although the Gnostics missed the main points of Christianity, they had to keep it as much like traditional Christianity on the surface so as to draw away those to be deceived. They used the same doctrines of who Jesus was as the traditional Christians. Barker makes sense. In fact, there's very little if any evidence that Jesus and Yehweh are not the same.

    But you decide. The very descriptions in the Old Testament that say that Jehovah will return in the New Testament in like manner say that Jesus will return. So it is He who will return to judge the quick and the dead. If Elyon has committed all the judgment to the Son, then how can Jehovah judge the Nations?

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    And that more whitewashing occurred when the Greek Catholic Fathers wished to portray Jesus as God the Father

    I would like to see some evidence that this is, or ever was, a Catholic teaching.

    AFAIK they teach Jesus is God the son, not to be confused with God the father.



  • jehovahsheep

    could the wts also be wrong on this?

  • PSacramento


    You make some interesting points, as does Ms.Baker.

    I think the issue seems to be what is being stated is that Jesus was A son of God, implying that he was oen of many, rather than THE Son of God being being in Nature, God, a opposed to a created "son of God", like the angels.

    John, Colossians, Philipians and Hebrews cleary state the UNIQUENESS of Jesus, begotten and NOT created.

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