Questions for Leolaia (possibly the board's brainiest poster :)

by JimmyPage 34 Replies latest jw friends

  • JimmyPage
    JimmyPage

    Leo, do you have reference books about the Bible stored on your computer? You seem to have a lot of info at your disposal that you can pull up quickly.

    What is your motive for learning so much about the Bible? Is it purely to set JWs straight? Do you just love the subject?

    Do you actually believe the Bible yourself?

    And since you're an anime fan, what do you think of Inuyasha?

    I started watching it when my first child was born. I thought at first the animation was crude and the voices were annoying. But it grew on me and I got addicted.

    What I really enjoyed was that it was so different from the type of American stories I was used to. The mythology was bizarre to me, and yet, rich. I really liked the Eastern background music as well.

    Just stuff I've been wondering about you.

    Peace and Love, -Jimmy P

  • Think About It
    Think About It

    Leolaia is sexy smart. Very attractive also.

    Think About It

  • Titus
  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I'd rather not characterize myself in the same terms as the subject line....it kinda makes me feel queasy.

    Leo, do you have reference books about the Bible stored on your computer? You seem to have a lot of info at your disposal that you can pull up quickly.

    Yes, I have a pretty good library at home and a growing collection (10,000+) of academic articles on my computer. But much of what I write is about stuff discussed before, and that I've read about over the years (since 1988). Because this is a subject I am very fascinated with, and with an Aspergerish mind for researching subjects in depth and recalling facts and data, I have a pretty good grasp on the gamut of early Jewish and Christian literature and the various ideas and views in them and expressed about them. So for a lot of things, I don't need to consult any books or articles at all. I can visualize quite easily, for instance, the structure of the book of 1 Enoch and the different stages through which the these components were written, and the many interesting ideas and literary connections found in each part. It's much the same way I'm sure for anyone in another discipline or subject area.

    What is your motive for learning so much about the Bible? Is it purely to set JWs straight? Do you just love the subject?

    Yes I love the subject, I totally love learning about the Bible and its context, and I probably wouldn't have gotten so fascinated with it if it hadn't been for growing up as a JW. So yes, I do appreciate that part of my JW background. Now, I do also like to set some things straight if I understand them to be not well-founded, or raise questions or open up other possibilities in reading in other areas.

    I gotta run to lunch so I'll respond more later.

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    I'd rather not characterize myself in the same terms as the subject line....it kinda makes me feel queasy.

    "Possibly" that's why it's appropriate, dear Leolaia.

    Peace to you!

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • asilentone
    asilentone

    I think Leo and Terry should play the JW Jeopardy.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I was in a real rush when I wrote my last message, so I want to add a few more things. First of all, there is an incredible depth that one can go into wrt the Bible and early Judaism and Christianity, whereas what is found in the Watchtower literature is often very superficial; there is so much more that can be dug up or discussed wrt a given topic or scripture. And also there is often a lack of depth or even plain nonsense on much of the internet about some topics, whereas real good quality discussion is locked up in academic literature that gets little exposure outside of biblioblogs (and those are really good reading, there is a lot of good information on blogs like NT Gateway, Paleojudaica, Hypotyposeis, Forbidden Gospels, Vridar, and so forth). So in part I like to bring some of this to bear whenever people raise topics on the board. I start very few threads and mostly comment on other people's threads. So if one person raises a question or makes a claim or observation, I like to chime in and give my opinion on the topic, or share some interesting points about it. Unfortunately the dynamic on this board has changed somewhat in recent years; it used to be me, Narkissos, PP, and some others commenting similarly, and it was more of a discussion between us. I liked that dynamic, as we had mutual critique of each other's ideas and appraisals. So just bear in mind that if I post a lengthy summary of information on a topic, it's not the final word, it's not the only way to look at things, but it is my own take on a topic, and I usually endeavor to back each of my points with evidence and citations, and lay out the reasoning (which is why they tend to be so "longwinded").

    Do you actually believe the Bible yourself?

    I think you mean, "Do you believe what the Bible says?", which is a question concerning faith. I don't have faith wrt to religious matters, which means that I don't have a personal belief in God, the afterlife, and what not. I suppose you can say I am somewhat spiritual in the sense that I have a deep interest in understanding the huge diversity of beliefs about the divine and how people have developed religious ideas over time. But I largely take a historical and cultural perspective; I am interested in understanding what the beliefs are and were and not on developing my own personal beliefs on the ontological reality of the objects of belief (one could philosophically label me as an agnostic). I see myself as quite different from believers who have definite beliefs about God and other religious subjects, as well as those atheists who view belief in rather derisive terms.

    And since you're an anime fan, what do you think of Inuyasha?

    I liked it and it's nice for a shonen series to have strong female protagonists (especially Sango, Kagome can be annoying) and some romance, although the latter got boring after a while in terms of story development. I too really like the "storyworld" and characters, which is usually the draw for me (rather than the action per se); my current interest in Touhou (not anime) I guess is similar, as I find the characters of Gensokyo fun (and I love how fans play a part in adding to the culture).

  • not a captive
    not a captive

    I was reading inthetrueone's thread about the qualities of a an unsafe group leader vs. the qualities of a safe group leader as well as the behaviors of the followers and was struck by the inversion of the picture of God that takes place between the OT God and Jesus. The point that realy bowled me over was the behaviors manifested by the cultish behavior of the "unsafe's" followers.

    I have an observation and a question.

    My observation:

    Scribes in every religion may be learned, but if they are not fair-minded, their religious bias could serve the ends of a religious regime. Scriptures are lost or suppressed, editorial abridgements and glosses can further confuse instead of clear up an original story. In the case of translators I have noticed that, for instance, Bibles translated after J. Calvin's campaign for his views of salvation translate words connected with his predestination/election doctrine do not reflect the freer more open interpretation of the verses. And to make matters worse, commentaries sit upon those words and further impose a stamp of judgement. All of these things show me that it is possible to "fix" a religious viewpoint in the minds of people so firmly that ---they believe this is the word of God!

    The WTS did it to us on a wide range of topics, phrases and expressions.

    Jesus had such a wall of controlling, judgemental religious rulers to contend with I wonder if the very same thing he faced isn't the same thing we face: religious "rulers"and "teachers" have been our sole filters for God in the WRITTEN WORD and have always been about control and conformity.I see that Jesus had to overcome the image of God that the people had been convinced of without destroying their faith in God.

    My question:

    In your scholarship in matters surrounding the handling of scripture, how likely is it that religious powers have subverted, dictated and distorted of our present understanding of original texts?

    P.S. Leolaia, I thank you in advance for the generousity you show for the time and thought to give on these things. I have never known of any place or anyone that gives so generously of their scholarship outside the academic community. This is amazing. So "unscribe-like"of you.

  • JimmyPage
    JimmyPage

    Thank you so much for taking the time to answer, Leo! Always cool to learn more about fellow posters.

  • PrimateDave
    PrimateDave

    In your scholarship in matters surrounding the handling of scripture, how likely is it that religious powers have subverted, dictated and distorted of our present understanding of original texts? - Not a Captive

    There is a recent thread on the topic of the amount of time that the Israelites spent in Egypt. Leolaia made several posts in it which indirectly answer your question. Imo, her posts also indirectly question your premise: that there are or have been original texts containing some sort of divine truth, as it were, that have been subverted, dictated, and distorted.

    The Witnesses claim authority on "the truth" because they believe that they somehow have bypassed centuries of Church "tradition" and "apostasy" from the "original" teachings of Jesus and the Apostles, or so they say. Yet, like other Fundamentalists they staunchly refuse to take their criticism further than the Church and into the texts themselves.

    Some believers begin to recognize that all is not well even within the Bible itself and go on a search for the "original" texts and meanings. Where does that lead? If you question the words, do you also begin to question the principles? Whose words and principles are "more original" and therefore "more trustworthy" or of "divine inspiration"? Here is a quote from one of the blogs that Leolaia recommended (thanks! ):

    ...All the ethics taught in the Bible are meant to keep people at the level of children. One can even suggest, as Nietzsche did, that the ethical teachings of the Bible function to instill a mentality of subservience. But slaves are not part of our society and most of us can relate more easily to the immaturity of children.

    I see nothing noble in the teachings of Jesus. They are all predicated on the threat of damnation if you don’t obey, and nice happy big fat rewards if you do. What sort of ethic is that? But even if we reflect on the noblest principles of Jesus quite apart from their reward-punishment matrix, they don’t ring an unambiguous clarion call for the ethical progress of humanity.

    His most famous “love one another” passages in the Gospel of John are all about the importance of loving those in your own circle of like-minded subservients to the exclusion of others. Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. Love one another.

    It seems that the Gospel of John is an attack on the sentiments put into the mouth of Jesus by the Gospel of Matthew. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

    But Jesus’ command to “love your enemies” is justified on some quite inhuman precepts. Jesus is appealing to his followers here to prove themselves to be “more righteous” than others in their community. His command is presented as a challenge, or more accurately a threat, to win the contest of showing themselves to be superior ethically to Pharisees and such. And to do this, they must set their minds to become as impersonal and perfect as an impersonal and perfect agent that sends rain and sunshine on the just and unjust alike.

    ...

    Would not humanity be better off — more relaxed and “naturally” good for goodness’ sake — if it ever can eventually leave behind the immaturity of the extrinsic reward and punishment ethics that religion generally spawns?

    http://vridar.wordpress.com/2010/06/12/why-being-an-atheist-is-better-than-being-seriously-religious/

    Do the religious powers that be actually subvert or distort the texts, or do they simply find precedents for their own behavior?

    I find it interesting how much of the Bible is like a back-and-forth argument between different writers at different times. It's like a "greatest hits" compilation of ancient writings, some of which have been reworked many times over the centuries. To carry the metaphor a bit further, if you enjoy the "music" you might not look too deeply at the lyrics themselves. Some authors of texts found within the Bible intentionally contradicted others. The lack of "harmony" provides interest. It gives apologists (who enjoy the "music") reasons to play their own interpretations. It gives Scholars (who look for meaning in the "lyrics") a fascinating puzzle to figure out, not so much in search of divine meaning but to learn more about the composers themselves.

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