Girls - what subject got you thinking?

by wannabefree 28 Replies latest jw friends

  • StAnn

    A couple of things. First, my dad was not a JW. I was very upset that my friends' dads, who weren't very good fathers, would live forever and my dad would die just because their dads were JWs. This caused me great distress. Second, I signed up for HST 121, Survey of Western Civilization. The very first week, 607 CE was debunked. I went to the college library and looked up EVERYTHING in there about 587/607. I knew that if 607 was wrong, 1914 was wrong, and it all came crashing down around my feet. I was in SHOCK.

    Encourage your wife to go to school. Have her sign up for a history course....


  • wannabefree

    palmtree: if you happen to check back here ... we had difficulties with a daughter and I struggled greatly with what the elders suggested and my conscience, I didn't kick her out, had I followed the different suggestions of tough love over the years, my wife would have experienced the reality of it, but I couldn't be that way ... some elders also told me to go to the meetings without her, then she would get the message about being ready earlier, I can't do that, although I did eventually tell her and it made her feel bad, I don't want her to feel bad but at the same time I did becasue I want her to wake up about the lack of genuine love

  • palmtree67


    I guess that incident started me thinkg about alot of other things. Our son was a good kid, we had never had any real problems with him. He just didn't want to go to meetings.

    My ex-husband told his parents at age 25 that he no longer wanted to go to the Catholic Church and his dad kicked him out of the house. Of course, my ex and all the JW's viewed this as TERRIBLE!!! He talked for years about how his dad kicked him out ( at age 25 ).

    I realized this was no different. Except my son had just turned 18, just graduated from HS and had no real job or place to go.

    Why was it okay for the JW's to kick their kids out for not wanting to go to the KH, but not okay for the Catholics to kick their kids out for not wanting to go to Church?

    I felt like I was living in an episode of the Twilight Zone.

  • wannabefree

    Thank you all for sharing!

    I am so worried about losing my wife and kids.

    I don't know how long I can put up with this though.

  • palmtree67


    Mothers do not tolerate their children being mistreated.

    Think of situations where your wife may have to choose between her children and the religion.

    I wish you the best,


  • 10p

    I try not to give advice, because I'm really no authority, but at the same time, I'm hopelessly opinionated ... so please excuse me.

    Firstly, I'd advise becoming a better husband and father than ever before. No women like being treated as "the weaker vessel" - so if you didn't already, totally drop that "husband is the head of the house" and treat your wife like a queen. (I'm presuming you have a good marriage and love each other dearly ... if your relationship wasn't so fantastic to start with, well, you might need to work on that first before worrying about the religion)

    Secondly, you said:

    " I have discussed different topics with my wife but she just seems to go on as though nothing was said on the subject. "

    My wife acted the same. But she soaked in every word I said. What I had said ate away at her constantly. I wanted to drown her in facts, but actually, it was only a few basic things that worried her.

    Very quickly, I realised she didn't want to listen ... she didn't want to talk about those things (which was no surprise ... I was the same back when I was a MS). So instead of trying to get her to listen to actual facts ... I addressed the fact that she wouldn't talk about these things. I would say things like "I can understand you disagreeing with me ... I feel we can still have a happy life together believing in different things. But its the fact that you won't even discuss these very serious issues ... that we can't talk about them and discuss them and express our opinions on them - that its all just shut up - THAT, I can't live with! That one of our children might need a blood transfusion to save his life, and I can't discuss with you why he damn well should have one, and why the Society is totally wrong on the blood issue."

    But most of the time, I just tried to be a better man, a better father, a better husband.

    It was about 2 years. And I consider myself lucky that it wasn't even longer.

    In the end, with her head and heart full of questions and doubts about the religion, but still clinging to it, and still refusing to discuss "apostate" stuff - I had had enough. With a heart as heavy as lead, I told her I couldn't live like this anymore, and I was going to leave.

    At that point she asked herself "why am I giving up this good marriage? what for? I don't even understand this religion. All these things my husband has said about it, and how it is wrong - and I don't even listen. I'm throwing away a good marriage and I don't even know why! How will I explain to my children as they grow up why mummy and daddy are divorced?"

    And thats when she agreed to discuss these apostate things (remember, I had pretty much stopped talking about anything specific for a year and a half - I would only talk about "talking about it") She agreed to read "The Book" (Crisis of Conscience) and that was IT. She was mentally out ... she kept going to meetings for a while, just to give each side "a fair go", every time hoping something would be said from the platform that would make sense and make everything normal again (I felt the same way at first myself)

    In the early days, I had told her that the JW founders - Rusell and Rutherford ... needed close examination. Russell was an apostate (he left his church and started Bible Students), and Rutherford was a drunkard and probably a womanizer. Of course, she thought this was just apostate propaganda - so she looked it up in the Proclaimers book herself. And that affected her a lot too.

    So basically, she stewed over a lot of things over the 2 years. I did my best to make our marriage great - it was difficult not to be constantly on the attack, but in some ways, I needed to learn some restraint. I think by the end of the 2 years, my wife realised that OUT of the "truth" I had become a better father and husband, that our marriage had improved, that I hadn't ended up smoking, on drugs, cheating on her, worshipping satan or any of those things they make out like people do when they leave the "protection of Jehovah's organisation."

    When the elders came over to have a meeting with me (I was VERY careful not to do or say anything incriminating to anyone I couldn't trust 100% - so it was just a visit of concern that I hadn't gone to any meetings or put in a report for a few months) they had nothing helpful to say. I basically told them I had doubts, and that I couldn't just ignore them - that would be BLIND faith, and I wanted my faith to be solid, based on reason. I said I couldn't go preaching to people telling them this was the truth, when I wasn't 100% sure myself. I didn't feel I could go to meetings because they aren't a place where you can raise questions and have them answered - I would just end up stumbling others. When they asked me what specific things I had doubts about, I was careful not to be too specific. I said, I knew the society had made errors in doctrine. They spewed the tired old "light gets brighter" - but I said, yes, but then how is it different to other religions? What IS it that makes them the one true religion exactly? They were totally speechless. Honestly. We sat there for about 5 minutes in total silence while they tried to think of something to say. In the end, one brother basically said I needed blind faith. (not in those words of course). He told me about how he had doubts when he was a teenager, but instead of facing them, he went pioneering, and that eventually made him feel better, and now 30 odd years later, he's still feeling fine. I didn't reply, but all I could think was "so you had doubts, and instead of proving them wrong with study and reason, you just ignored them and drowned them in spiritual activity. nice!"

    Well, that meeting left my wife dumbfounded. Weren't the elders supposed to be these beacons of light, loving shepherds who would save me? I hadn't done anything wrong. I wasn't a naughty boy who needed discipline. I wasn't angry or disrespectful. At that time, I was truly willing to go back if someone could show me that it actually was the truth. Somewhere inside I wished for that - Its not like I had already been DF'd for doing something I secretly enjoyed, and wanted to keep doing it, so was looking for reasons to leave - not at all. I was a ministerial servant at that point where I knew they were discussing appointing me as an elder. I was an excellent public speaker. I was one of the few MS's allowed to give public talks in neighborings congregations. I enjoyed it. So, in summary, I was actually asking the elders to help me back with real answers, reasons. But they had nothing. I was being a bit cautious at the same time though - I wasn't going to reveal any specific doubts that I could be accused with later. So I put the onous on them to prove to me, as if I was a wordly, why this is the one true religion? And they couldn't. Its easy when you have to do it to a worldy - because they know nothing, and so its easy to impress them with a few scriptures that seem to talk of a paradise earth etc. But to convince someone who knows it all and STILL doubts ... wow, no wonder they were silent. How do you distinguish the governing body from any other religious leaders? They made mistakes, they changed their doctrines, they've been caught in scandals, they've protected child molestors - how can we read a watchtower today and call it "truth", when in the future, those doctrines could change under the "new light" policy? These are things worldlies don't know about.

    Anyway, back to my wife. I tried not to use any "tactics". As a JW, you use them all the time, like second nature. We would out-and-out lie to people at the doors saying "we're not out here to convert anyone." Orwellian Doublespeak is a second language to JWs. So I tried hard not to do that sort of thing. The one thing I DID do, which I'm not 100% proud of, but you can judge for yourself how ethical it was: I said to her once - "The society used to teach that organ transplants were wrong and a disfellowshipping offense. Many people died when they didn't need to. Today, they teach against blood tranfusions. How will you feel, if one of our children one day needs a transfusion, you refuse it and he dies? And then a few years later, the society changes the teaching on blood like they changed the teaching on transplants?"

    I've asked my lovely wife to write her side down, and I will post it when she has. She's never been on this forum.

    All the best mate,

  • Crisis of Conscience
    Crisis of Conscience

    Wow 10p! I have high hopes that things can turn out the same with my wife. I asked her once if she felt I had changed in the way I treat her, despite her knowing my current feelings about being a witness. She said no.

    I feel we have actually gotten closer. At this point, I'm being very subtle in what I say. She seems to listen but I don't push the issue. I really have found in all this that I love her deeply and truly want the best for her. So I'm doing my best to be patient with the situation.

    Best regards to all in the struggle.


  • wannabefree

    Thanks 10p, this is very helpful.

  • Crisis of Conscience
    Crisis of Conscience

    I encourage married JW men, especially, to read the post by 10p, which is the third post up from this one. Very insightful and helpful, if you also have a wife who is a JW.

Share this