Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 05-30-10 WT Study (ONE FLOCK/SHEPHERD)

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    blondie

    Comments You Will Not Hear at the 05-30-10 WT Study (March 15, 2010, pages 24-28)(ONE FLOCK/SHEPHERD)

    Review comments will be in red or headed by COMMENTS
    WT material from today's WT will be in black
    Quotes from other sources will headed by QUOTES
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    g = Awake
    jv = Proclaimers book

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    ONE FLOCK, ONE SHEPHERD "You who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. "-MATT. 19:28.

    OPENING COMMENTS

    I do believe the WTS is trying to stem the tide of new partakers despite the "new" information in 2007. I wonder what the numbers will be this year.

    2005 8524
    2006 8758
    2007 9105
    2008 9986
    2009 10857
    2010 ?????

    http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/memorial-partakers.php

    START OF ARTICLE

    Q 1. How did Jehovah deal with Abraham's descendants, and why does this not mean that he totally disregarded all other people?

    JEHOVAH loved Abraham, so He showed loyal love to Abraham's descendants. For over 15 centuries, he viewed the nation of Israel, which descended from Abraham, as his chosen people, his "special property." (Read Deuteronomy 7:6.) Did that mean that Jehovah totally disregarded people of other nations? No. During that time, non-Israelites who desired to worship Jehovah were allowed to attach themselves to his special nation. These converts, or proselytes, were viewed as part of the nation. They were to be treated as brothers. (Lev.19: 33,34) And they were required to obey all of Jehovah's laws.-Lev. 24:22.

    COMMENTSOT-Abraham
    Remember the point they make here that people were were not born Israelites could become Israelites as converts or proselytes and were to be treated as brothers. Were they considered secondary? Would God reward them differently than people born into the Jewish nation? Are the great crowd brothers or subjects? Were all the natural Jews brothers, a point to remember because the WTS is going to split the nation of Israel into 2 groups, one secondary.

    QUOTE***Bearing Witness (bt) chap. 3 p. 27 “Filled With Holy Spirit” ***
    They were considered Jews in all respects, since they accepted the God and the Law of Israel, rejected all other gods, underwent circumcision (if male), and joined themselves to the nation of Israel.

    (last week)The 'collecting out' of the weedlike imitation Christians has been clearly recognized by an ever-increasing great crowd of sheeplike ones. In attaching themselves to the remnant of spiritual Israel, these prospective subjects of the Kingdom likewise let their light shine in this bedarkened world. Whereas in another illustration, Jesus tells us that the seed that is sown is "the word of the kingdom," in this illustration, he tells us that the fine seed represents something different--"the sons of the kingdom." (Matt. 13:19,38) These are not subjects of the Kingdom but, rather, "sons," or heirs, of the Kingdom.

    Q 2. What startling declaration did Jesus make, leading to what questions?

    2. However, Jesus made this startling declaration to the Jews of his day: "The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits." (Matt. 21:43) Who would make up this new nation, and how are we today affected by this change?

    COMMENTSThis sounds like the nation of Israel on earth would no longer exclusively represent God, but some of the Jews would be joined by non-Jews all becoming followers of Jesus, Christians.

    The New Nation

    Q 3, 4. (a) How did the apostle Peter identify the new nation? (b) Who make up this new nation?

    3. The apostle Peter clearly identified this new nation. He wrote the following to his fellow Christians: "You are' a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies' of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light." (1 Pet. 2:9) As foretold, natural Jews who accepted Jesus as the Messiah were the first members of that new nation. (Dan. 9:27a; Matt. 10:6) Later, many non-Israelites were also included in this nation, for Peter went on to say: "You were once not a people, but are now God's people."-1 Pet. 2:10.

    COMMENTSOther than Galatians 6:16 where Paul says "Israel of God" this is one of the few allusions to Christians, Jewish and Gentile, being a new Israel. But were they two parts, one having less status and responsibility in the Christian congregation?

    4. To whom was Peter here speaking? In the beginning of his letter, he says: "[God] gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you." (1 Pet. 1:3, 4) So this new nation is made up of anointed Christians, who have the heavenly hope. They are "the Israel of God." (Gal. 6:16) In a vision, the apostle John saw that these spiritual Israelites number 144,000. They are "bought from among mankind as first fruits to God and to the Lamb" to serve as "priests" and to "rule as kings with [Jesus] for the thousand years."-Rev. 5:10; 7:4; 14:1,4; 20:6; Jas. 1:18.

    COMMENTSWhere is there any tie-in with Galatians and 1 Peter with John's mention of only 144,000? How many Christians were there around 100 C.E.? Or does the WTS label people then as "professed" and "so-called" Christians?

    QUOTES*** w52 1/15 p. 62 Questions From Readers ***
    According to the article “Hated for His Name” in the September 1, 1951, Watchtower, hundreds of thousands of Christians died in the “ten persecutions” starting in Nero’s time, 144,000 dying in Egypt alone during one of the persecutions. How can this be harmonized with the Scriptural limitation of 144,000 placed on the number being in Christ’s body, and which position was the only one open to Christians during those centuries?—J.A., Dominican Republic.

    The article did not class with any finality the individuals that died during these persecutions, but spoke of the results in a general way. Note that a key qualification was made in the case referred to in the question: “In the province of Egypt alone, 144,000 such professed Christians died by violence in the course of this persecution, in addition to another 700,000 who died as a result of fatigues encountered in banishment or under enforced public works.” The victims are identified as “professed Christians”, not Christians in fact. Many of those persons might have been caught in the wave of persecution, but may never have actually preached the truth or followed in Jesus’ footsteps, being only professed Christians. They knew the world they lived in was rotten and they were listening to the message of the Christians and willing to die for it even though not in line for the high calling in Christ Jesus. Many professed Christians today might be willing to die for their faith, but still not be Jesus’ footstep followers and meeting the Scriptural requirements for such.

    *** w72 7/1 p. 415 Questions From Readers ***
    Large numbers of Christians are said to have been put to death during the Roman persecution in the first few centuries
    of the Common Era. How, then, is it possible for thousands in this century to have been called to become part of the body of Christ composed of only 144,000 persons?—U.S.A.

    There are historical indications that many Christians were bitterly persecuted, even killed, in the first few centuries. However, it should be remembered that, in itself, a martyr’s death did not give a person merit before Jehovah God nor did it guarantee membership in the heavenly kingdom....

    Are Others Also Included?

    Q 5. (a) To whom does the expression "Israel of God" refer? (b) Why is the term "Israel" not always limited in its meaning?

    5. Clearly, then, the phrase "Israel of God" at Galatians 6:16 refers exclusively to anointed Christians. However, are there instances when Jehovah uses the nation of Israel as a picture, or illustration, that includes Christians other than the anointed? The answer can be found in these words of Jesus to his faithful apostles: "I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel." (Luke 22:28-30) This will take place during "the re-creation," or time of regeneration, during Christ's Millennial Rule.-Read Matthew 19:28; ftn.

    COMMENTSCLEARLY....so where does the WTS prove that "Israel of God" means only anointed Christians, today only jws?
    Where has the WTS proved that there are 2 classes of Christians?

    Doesn't the WTS say that in Revelation that the terms "144,000," "24 elders," and the twelve tribes of Israel (figurative not literal) mean the same group of anointed Christians not a heavenly group and an earthly group?

    (Revelation 4:4) 4 And round about the throne [there are] twenty-four thrones, and upon these thrones [I saw] seated twenty-four elders dressed in white outer garments, and upon their heads golden crowns.

    QUOTES*** w07 1/1 p. 28 par. 10 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way ***... the 24 elders, and these elders represent the 144,000 joint heirs with Christ in their heavenly glory. (Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 4:4)

    *** Revelation Climax book (re) chap. 29 p. 201 par. 10 Singing the Triumphal New Song ***How can the 144,000 sing “before” the elders, since the 24 elders are the 144,000 in their glorious heavenly position?

    *** Revelation Climax book (re) chap. 29 p. 201 par. 11 Singing the Triumphal New Song ***At this point we might also ask: Why is it that these anointed overcomers are referred to as the symbolic 24 elders as well as the 144,000? It is because Revelation views this one group from two different standpoints. The 24 elders are always shown in their ultimate position around Jehovah’s throne, installed as kings and priests in the heavens. They symbolize the entire group of 144,000 in their heavenly position, although at present a small remnant of these is still on earth. (Revelation 4:4, 10; 5:5-14; 7:11-13; 11:16-18) Revelation chapter 7, however, focuses on the 144,000 as brought forth from humankind,

    *** Insight book it-2 p. 513 Number, Numeral ***This assists in identifying the “twenty-four elders” who were seated round about God’s throne in white outer garments and who were wearing crowns. (Re 4:4) The footstep followers of Jesus Christ, his spiritual brothers, are promised kingship and priesthood with him in the heavens. These elders could not be only the apostles, who numbered just 12. They therefore evidently represent the entire body of the “royal priesthood,” the 144,000 (as represented in the 24 priestly divisions serving at the temple) in their positions in the heavens, as crowned kings and priests.—1Pe 2:9; Re 7:4-8; 20:6.

    Q 6, 7. To whom does the expression “the twelve tribes of Israel” refer in the context of Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30?

    6. The 144,000 will serve as heavenly kings, priests, and judges during the Thousand Year Reign. (Rev. 20:4) Whom will they judge, and over whom will they rule? At Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30, we are told that they will judge "the twelve tribes of Israel." Whom do "the twelve tribes of Israel" picture in this context? They represent all those with an earthly hope--those who put faith in Jesus' sacrifice but are not included in the royal priestly class. (The tribe of Levi was not included in the listing of the 12 tribes of natural Israel.) Those pictured in this context by the 12 tribes of Israel are the ones who will gain spiritual benefits from the priestly services of the 144,000. These nonpriestly beneficiaries are also God's people, and he loves and accepts them. It is appropriate that they are likened to his people of ancient times.

    COMMENTSHow in the quotes above has the WTS identified the twelve tribes, especially in Revelation 7:4-8, as only anointed Christians. Is it possible for the 24 elders shown in a different position from the 144,000? Does that mean they are 2 separate groups? Does that the WTS identifies one as a heavenly group and one as an earthly group mean they aren't all part of the 144,000, to rule with Christ? The WTS point is that the 24 elders are ruling in heaven but the 144,000 on earth are not; but that doesn't mean that the 144,000 on earth cannot have the heavenly hope. Are the 144,000 on earth only going to receive priestly services, that they are "nonpriestly beneficiaries" only.

    7. Fittingly, after the apostle John saw the 144,000 spiritual Israelites being permanently sealed before the great tribulation, he also observed a numberless "great crowd," who come "out of all nations." (Rev. 7:9) These will survive the great tribulation into Christ's Millennial Reign. There they will be joined by billions of resurrected ones. (John 5:28, 29; Rev. 20:13) All of these will make up the symbolic "twelve tribes of Israel," who will be judged by Jesus and his 144,000 co-rulers.-Acts 17:31; 24:15; Rev. 20:12.

    COMMENTSFITTINGLY
    What does the WTS say "being permanent sealed" means? Does that mean the last of the literal 144,000 has been found and judged incapable of failing while on earth? What does it mean "has fully demonstrated his loyalty"? It doesn't mean physical death, "When the four winds of tribulation are unleashed, all of spiritual Israel will have been sealed in finality, even though a few will still be alive in the flesh and must yet finish their earthly course."

    *** re chap. 19 p. 116 par. 9 Sealing the Israel of God ***So here on earth the testing and sifting of the remaining spirit-begotten sons of God must go on until Jesus and his accompanying angels will have firmly implanted the seal ‘in the forehead’ of all of these, identifying them conclusively, irrevocably, as tried and faithful “slaves of our God.” That seal then becomes a permanent mark. Evidently, when the four winds of tribulation are unleashed, all of spiritual Israel will have been sealed in finality, even though a few will still be alive in the flesh.

    *** w07 1/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
    The sealing in a final sense serves to confirm that this chosen and sealed individual has fully demonstrated his loyalty. Only then, at the final sealing, will the seal be permanently placed ‘in the forehead’ of the anointed one, identifying him conclusively as a tried and faithful ‘slave of our God.’ The sealing mentioned in Revelation chapter 7 refers to this final phase of the sealing.—Revelation 7:3.

    When will the remnant of anointed Christians who have initially been sealed receive their final sealing? Any still alive on earth will be sealed “in their foreheads” before the outbreak of the great tribulation. When the four winds of tribulation are unleashed, all of spiritual Israel will have been sealed in finality, even though a few will still be alive in the flesh and must yet finish their earthly course.

    Q 8. How do the events of the annual Atonement Day foreshadow the relationship between the 144,000 and the rest of mankind?

    8. This relationship between the 144,000 and the rest of mankind was foreshadowed in the events of the annual Atonement Day. (Lev. 16:6-10) The high priest was required, first of all, to sacrifice a bull as a sin offering "in behalf of himself and his house." Thus, Jesus' sacrifice is applied first to his household of under priests, those who will serve with him in heaven. Also on the ancient Atonement Day, two goats were provided for the sins of the other Israelites. In this setting, where the priestly tribe pictures the 144,000, the rest of Israel pictures all those with an earthly hope. This application shows that the term "the twelve tribes of Israel" at Matthew 19:28 refers, not to Jesus' spirit-begotten under priests, but to all others who put faith in Jesus' sacrifice.*

    * Similarly, the anointed are primarily spoken of as "the congregation." (Heb. 12:23) However, the word "congregation" can have another meaning, referring to all Christians, no matter what hope they have.-See The Watchtower, April 15, 2007, pages 21-23.

    COMMENTSWas this dual aspect any different than the "24 elders" and the 144,000 or spiritual Israel in Revelation 7:8? It does not mean that one has an "earthly hope" and the other "heavenly."

    Were all the Levites priests although in the tribe of Levi or only those in Aaron's family? Is Levi the priestly tribe then or only a small subset, the family of Aaron? How could the tribe of Levi picture the 144,000 who are described as all being priests?

    Does the definition in the 4/15/07 WT apply "all Christians llving at a certaom time" if it has not clearly established there are 2 groups, anointed and non-anointed? Sounds circular to me.

    *** it-2 p. 241 Levites ***Priestly duties were confined to the male members of Aaron’s family, with the Levites, the rest of the tribe, acting as their assistants. (Nu 3:3, 6-10)

    *** it-2 p. 684 Priest ***Retirement of nonpriestly Levites from obligatory service at the sanctuary was at 50 years, but there was no retirement provided for priests.—Nu 8:25, 26

    Q 9. Whom do the priests in Ezekiel's temple vision represent, and whom do the nonpriestly Israelites represent?

    9. Consider another example. The prophet Ezekiel was given an extensive vision of Jehovah's temple. (Ezek., chaps. 40-48) In that visionary setting, the priests worked in the temple, providing instruction and receiving Jehovah's counsel and correction. (Ezek. 44:23-31) In the same setting, members of the various tribes came to worship and offer sacrifices. (Ezek. 45:16, 17) In this context, then, the priests picture the anointed, while Israelites from the nonpriestly tribes picture those with an earthly hope. The vision emphasizes that the two groups work together harmoniously, with the priestly class taking the lead in pure worship.

    COMMENTSOT--Ezekiel

    The "nonpriestly Israelites" would include the vast majority of the Levites since only the descendants of Aaron performed priestly duties.

    If only the descendants of Aaron performed priestly duties, then the rest of the tribe of Levi were not pictures of the anointed and had to picture those with an earthly hope.

    (my head is spinning)

    Q 10, 11. (a) What faith-strengthening fulfillment of Jesus' words have we seen? (b) What question arises about the other sheep?

    10. Jesus spoke of "other sheep" who would not be of the same "fold" as the "little flock" of his anointed followers. (John 10:16; Luke 12:32) He said: "Those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd." How faith-strengthening it has been to see the fulfillment of those words. Two groups of people have been joined together--the small group of anointed ones and the great crowd of other sheep. (Read Zechariah 8:23.) Although the other sheep do not symbolically serve in the inner courtyard of the spiritual temple, they do serve in the outer courtyard of that temple.

    COMMENTSDid Jesus give 2 hopes to his disciples, to preach to others? Did that mean Jesus was not aware that those who died before his sacrifice did not go to heaven? Think of John the Baptist being less than the least one in heaven.

    2 groups = anointed and earthly OR Jewish and Gentile?

    While the Levites could enter the inner courtyard they could not enter the Holy. Based on the WTS statement below, anointed Christians can enter the Holy, thus Levites who were not descendants of Aaron and could not enter the Holy could not picture the 144,000 or spiritual Israel.

    *** w06 9/1 p. 25 par. 14 How to Approach the “Hearer of Prayer” ***Anointed Christians with the heavenly hope enjoy a unique spiritual condition foreshadowed by the inner courtyard and the Holy, which enables them to render prayers and praise to God.

    11. But if Jehovah sometimes uses the nonpriestly members of ancient Israel who picture these other sheep, should those with an earthly hope also partake of the memorial emblems? We will now consider the answer to this question.

    COMMENTSNonpriestly members of ancient Israel include all but the descendants of Aaron. How is it possible then that the complete tribe of Levi is shown to be part of "spiritual" Israel in Revelation 7?


    The New Covenant

    Q 12. What new arrangement did Jehovah foretell?

    12. Jehovah foretold a new arrangement for his people when he said: “This is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days. . . . I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.” (Jer. 31:31-33) By means of this new covenant, Jehovah’s promise to Abraham was to have a glorious and lasting fulfillment. —Read Genesis 22:18.

    COMMENTSOT--Jeremiah
    Was this a "new covenant" or "the" new covenant? What is its relationship to the Abrahamic covenant? Was this the same covenant Jesus concluded with his disciples?

    What was the timeframe of Jeremiah's life....just 40 years or so before the destruction of Jerusalem with God predicting that he would restablish Israel, under 100 years in the future not 600 or so years in the future.

    Q 13, 14. a) Who are participants in the new covenant? B) Who are beneficiaries, and how do they ‘lay hold’ of this new covenant?

    13. Jesus referred to this new covenant on the night before his death when he said: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in your behalf.” (Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25) Are all Christians included in this new covenant? No. Some, like the apostles who drank of that cup that evening, are participants in the new covenant. Jesus made another covenant with them to rule together with him in his Kingdom. (Luke 22:28-30) They will share with Jesus in his Kingdom. —Luke 22:15,16.

    COMMENTSall Christians = only jws, specifically only anointed jws

    So the covenant in Luke 22:20 is not the same covenant in Luke 22:28-30? But does the WTS only apply Luke 22:28-30 to the NONPRIESTLY part of Israel? To judge the TWELVE tribes of Israel, not just 11, or 11.5 if you factor out the NONPRIESTLY Levites? How is any different that the "24 elders," 144,000, 12 tribes or spiritual Israel at Revelation 7?

    14. What of those who will live on earth under his Kingdom? They are beneficiaries of the new covenant. (Gal. 3:8, 9) Although not participants, they 'lay hold' of this covenant by submitting to its requirements, just as was foretold by the prophet Isaiah: "The foreigners that have joined themselves to Jehovah to minister to him and to love the name of Jehovah, in order to become servants to him, all those keeping the Sabbath in order not to profane it and laying hold of my covenant, I will also bring them to my holy mountain and make them rejoice inside my house of prayer." Jehovah then says: "For my own house will be called even a house of prayer for all the peoples." -Isa. 56:6, 7.

    COMMENTSWhere does Jesus say that only some of his followers would be participants and others beneficiaries of the new covenant?

    Foreigners--but weren't those who weren't born Israelites referred to as proselytes who became just the same as those native born Jews before God? "They were considered Jews in all respects."

    *** Bible Teach book bt chap. 3 p. 27 “Filled With Holy Spirit” ***Proselytes were Gentiles, that is, non-Jews, who had converted to Judaism. They were considered Jews in all respects, since they accepted the God and the Law of Israel, rejected all other gods, underwent circumcision (if male), and joined themselves to the nation of Israel.

    Who Should Partake?

    Q 15, 16. (a) To what does the apostle Paul link the new covenant? (b) Why should those with an earthly hope not partake of the Memorial emblems?

    15. Those in the new covenant "have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place." (Read Hebrews 10:15-20.) These are the ones who are "to receive a kingdom that cannot be shaken." (Heb. 12:28) So, then, only those who will be kings and priests in heaven with Jesus Christ should drink from the" cup" that represents the new covenant. These participants in the new covenant are the ones promised in marriage to the Lamb. (2 Cor. 11:2; Rev. 21:2, 9) All others who attend the annual Memorial are respectful observers, who do not partake of the emblems.

    * Jesus is the Mediator of that covenant, not a participant. As the Mediator, he evidently did not partake of the emblems.

    COMMENTSWhere does Jesus say that some would not participate in the new covenant?

    Up until 1938 only anointed jws were invited to attend the memorial...no respectful observers. Even after the identification of the "great crowd" in 1935, it took 3 years before others were invited. For years after 1935, only anointed male jws could be elders, and even today if there is an anointed male jw in the congregation, he must give the memorial talk.

    If the choosing of anointed ended in 1935, why the recent increase? It has forced the WTS to tweak that doctrine. Notice how they word it "it was believed" and "this seemed" and "were believed" as if the pulled this out of the air and that the WTS/FDS/GB was not responsible for formulating and teaching this.

    See a 1995 WT comment:

    "Logically, the calling of the little flock would draw to a close when the number was nearing completion, and the evidence is that the general gathering of these specially blessed ones ended in 1935."

    *** w07 8/15 p. 19 Do You Remember? ***
    When does the calling of Christians to the heavenly hope end?
    The Bible does not supply a precise answer. That calling began in 33 C.E. and continued into modern times. After 1935 the thrust of the disciple-making work turned to the gathering in of the great crowd. Some who were baptized after 1935 have had witness borne to them by holy spirit that they have the heavenly hope, so we cannot set a specific date for the end of that calling. Truly anointed ones do not have more of God’s spirit, nor do they expect special treatment. Whatever their hope, Christians need to be faithful and keep doing God’s will.—5/1, pages 30-1.

    *** w07 5/1 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers ***
    Hence, especially after 1966 it was believed that the heavenly call ceased in 1935. This seemed to be confirmed when almost all who were baptized after 1935 felt that they had the earthly hope. Thereafter, any called to the heavenly hope were believed to be replacements for anointed Christians who had proved unfaithful.

    *** w95 2/15 p. 19 par. 6 “Have No Fear, Little Flock” ***Jehovah has established a limited number, 144,000, to make up the little flock, and he has been gathering it since Pentecost 33 C.E. Logically, the calling of the little flock would draw to a close when the number was nearing Completion, and the evidence is that the general gathering of these specially blessed ones ended in 1935.

    16. Paul also helps us to understand that those with an earthly hope do not partake of the Memorial emblems. He said to anointed Christians: "For as often as you eat this loaf and drink this cup, you keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives." (1 Cor. 11:26) When does the Lord 'arrive'? When he comes to take the last of his anointed bride class to their heavenly home. (John 14:2, 3) Clearly, the annual observance of the Lord's Evening Meal is not to continue endlessly. "The remaining ones" of the woman's seed yet on earth will continue to partake of this meal until all of them have received their heavenly reward. (Rev. 12:17) If, though, those who will live forever on earth were entitled to partake of the emblems, then this Memorial meal would need to continue forever.

    COMMENTSSo did Paul understand that not all Christians would partake?
    Did Jesus arrive in 1914? If so why still the memorial?

    In the illustration of the minas...when did Jesus receive "kingly power" or "arrive"? According to the WTS, Jesus has been ruling in the midst of his enemies since 1914. Yet in reference to 1 Corinthians 11:26, the WTS says..."until he arrives to take the remnant....with him in his heavenly Father's home."

    Did you realize that the WTS teaches that some of the anointed will survive Armageddon and will still be on earth....yet they teach that the marriage of the bride to the Lamb takes place shortly after the start of the great tribulation...so some miss their wedding?

    CLEARLY...So if more than 144,000 Christians partake, why would it go on endlessly. The WTS is comparing apples--those who go to heaven, with apples--those who live on earth (especially all those who died before 33 C.E.)

    QUOTES*** w00 10/15 p. 26 Working in the “Field”—Before the Harvest ***Jesus’ arrival would mark the beginning of “the harvest” of wheatlike Christians. That would be a mark of the ‘conclusion of the system of things,’ which began in 1914.

    *** w08 7/15 p. 27 Highlights From the Letters to the Corinthians ***11:26—How “often” is Jesus’ death to be commemorated, and “until” when? Paul was not saying that Jesus’ death would be commemorated often. The Greek word used for “as often as” means “whenever” or “every time that.” Therefore, Paul was saying that every time anointed Christians partake of the Memorial emblems, once a year on Nisan 14, they are “proclaiming the death of the Lord.” They do this “until he arrives,” that is, until he receives them into the heavens by a resurrection.—1 Thess. 4:14-17.

    *** Man's Salvation book chap. 18 p. 330 par. 8 On Whose Side Are We When World Distress Climaxes? ***They are determined to “keep proclaiming the death of the Lord” in this prescribed manner “until he arrives” to take the remnant of his “bride” class to be with him in his heavenly Father’s home above.—Ephesians 5:23-27.

    *** w54 8/15 p. 502 par. 22 The Power of Hope ***While the anointed remnant expect to serve on earth for a period after Armageddon, as it pleases Jehovah, and while the other sheep expect to serve Jehovah without a break in life clear through to the end of this system of things at Armageddon and on into the unending time of the new world, yet death due to natural causes or due to keeping integrity may occur before Armageddon.

    *** w07 1/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
    When the four winds of tribulation are unleashed, all of spiritual Israel will have been sealed in finality, even though a few will still be alive in the flesh and must yet finish their earthly course.

    "They Will Actually Become My People"

    Q 17, 18. How has the prophecy recorded at Ezekiel 37:26, 27 been fulfilled?

    17. Jehovah foretold the unity of his people in these words: "I will conclude with them a covenant of peace; an indefinitely lasting covenant is what there will come to be with them. And I will place them and multiply them and place my sanctuary in the midst of them to time indefinite. And my tabernacle will actually prove to be over them, and I shall certainly become their God, and they themselves will become my people." -Ezek. 37:26,27.

    COMMENTSOT--Ezekiel; it's easy to see how jws can be confused jumping back and forth from the OT and the NT

    What is the Abrahamic covenant...an indefinitely lasting covenant? or the new covenant? Are only some participants and others beneficiaries to this covenant?

    18. All of God's people are privileged to benefit from the fulfillment of this marvelous promise, this covenant for Christian peace. Yes, Jehovah has guaranteed peace for all of his obedient servants. The fruitage of his spirit is evident among them. His sanctuary, here picturing pure Christian worship, is among them. They have truly become his people, for they have abandoned all forms of idolatry and have made Jehovah the only God whom they worship.

    COMMENTSGod's people--only jws
    Only anointed jws PARTICIPATE in the new covenant...do they benefit?
    pure Christian worship--only jws, the WTS/FDS/GB
    Have jws really abandoned all forms of idolatry...how do the view the WTS/FDS/GB, as the conduit to Jesus then God.

    Q 19, 20. Who are included in those whom Jehovah calls "my people," and what does the new covenant make

    possible?

    19. How thrilling it has been to witness this unifying of two groups in our time! Although the ever-growing great crowd do not have the heavenly hope, they are proud to be associated with those who do. They have attached themselves to the Israel of God. By doing this, they are included among those whom Jehovah calls "my people." In them we find the fulfillment of this prophecy: "Many nations will certainly become joined to Jehovah in that day, and they will actually become my people; and I will reside in the midst of you." -Zech. 2: 11; 8:21; read Isaiah 65:22; Revelation 21:3, 4.

    COMMENTSTwo groups = are nonanointed jws Israelites without the perks? Remember Levites were nonpriestly, only a small group, the descendants of Aaron were priests.

    Although...do not have heavenly hope....sounds like being nonanointed is secondary and less desirable. How can they attach themselves to the Israel of God if they are Israelites?

    20. By means of the new covenant, Jehovah has made all of this possible. Millions of spiritual foreigners have become part of Jehovah's favored nation. (Mic. 4:1-5) They are determined to continue to lay hold of that covenant by accepting its provisions and obeying its requirements. (Isa. 56:6, 7) In so doing, along with the Israel of God, they enjoy the rich blessings of continued peace. May that be your blessed lot-now and for all time to come!

    COMMENTSAre they attached as proselytes, Israelites, or "spiritual foreigners" uncircumcised at that.
    God's favored nation = only anointed jws and their associates

    Peace---that could be another article of the lack of peace in jw congregations.

    Do You Remember?

    Who are "the twelve tribes of Israel" that the 144,000 will judge?
    What is the relationship of the anointed and of the other sheep to the new covenant?
    Should all Christians partake of the Memorial emblems?
    What unity was foretold for our day?

    CLOSING COMMENTSSo now nonanointed are Israelites, but not in the priestly tribe Levi, although only the descendants of Aaron were priests and the rest of the Levites were NONpriestly. Hmmm.

    Next week, YOUNG PEOPLE--STRENGTHEN YOUR DESIRE TO SERVE JEHOVAH.

    (Where is Jesus in their relationship?)

    Love, Blondie

  • palmtree67
    palmtree67

    Nicely done.

    Thank you, Blondie!

  • BluesBrother
    BluesBrother

    Confusing...to a simple man like me..

    The anointed are "Spiritual Israel" but also the "twelve tribes of Israel " in this context only, represent (par 7) "All those with an Earthly hope" . These ones are not parties to the New Covenant, they are beneficiaries of it.....

    Par 8 ftnote says "The anointed are primarily spoken of as 'the congregation' However the word 'congregation' can have another meaning.........?

    We already knew that that Israel is a picture of the anointed , but in par 9 "Israelites (non priestly class) picture those with an earthly hope."......?

    Which begs the question (par 11) "Should those with an earthly hope also partake of the Memorial emblems?" ......Hmmm after 70 odd years of saying NO. I wonder why the question arises now?

    I did not attend a study this week.. but I would imagine that a lot of Study Conductors had a job getting answers this week.

    If something is hard to explain then it means that there is something wrong with that explanation !

  • ziddina
    ziddina

    Blondie!!! Thanks again for all your effort!!!

    However...

    A thought just struck me...

    After reading this quote: "(last week)The 'collecting out' of the weedlike imitation Christians has been clearly recognized by an ever-increasing great crowd of sheeplike ones...."

    In any field cultivated by a GOOD farmer, the 'wheat' is going to OUTNUMBER the 'weeds'... Looking at the skewed number of supposedly 'true' Christians - or 'worshippers' - as opposed to the supposedly large number of 'false' ones...

    I would say that "God" is a mighty poor farmer...

    Zid

  • ziddina
    ziddina

    Another thought - or perhaps a question - occurred to me...

    Regarding the "partaking of the emblems", Jesus said, "Keep on doing this in remembrance of me"... [please bear with me; I'm not as 'bible-literate' as the rest of you...]

    So, if Jesus' followers continued "doing this in remembrance...", then that would mean followers other than the 12 apostles were partaking of the emblems... For centuries... For almost two thousand years, in fact...

    Until the Watchtower Organization came along and claimed a distinction between 'partakers' and 'non-partakers'...

    Which would increase the likelihood that the 'number', "144,000", was fulfilled LONG ago...

    So the commandment, "Keep on doing this in remembrance of me..." was for Christians OTHER than for the twelve apostles, until 1879??? Are there examples in the New Testament of early Christian congregations wherein ALL members partook of the emblems?? In which case, it should be painfully obvious that, if ALL members of the early Christian congregation partook of the emblems, that this pattern of behavior would CONTINUE down thru the ages until the WTBTS "slammed the door to heaven shut" in the 1930's, with J.F. Rutherford's announcement of the "Great Crowd"...

    Which MUST have filled that "sacred" [I believe it's strictly a symbolic number...] quantity of "144,000", a long time ago...

    Now I'm repeating myself... And MY head is spinning, too...

    Zid

  • hamsterbait
    hamsterbait

    The Witchtower babble and Trash Society, is turning its attention to this discrepancy.

    In a study a few months ago, they said that in John 6: 54 -59 Jesus was addressing both those who believed they would get an earthly resurrection, and those who believed a heavenly. (AAAH - Blondie I dont have it anymore!!)

    They have not yet started to explain away that if both classes are addressed here, why does he say NOBODY has everlasting life unless he EATS and DRINKS? The attempt in the actual study, that earthly resurrectees merely exercise faith does not wash.

    Dont forget too - the Apostles MUST have taught that Christians of the earthly hope do not take the emblems.

    Otherwise Gal 1: 8 applies to the WTBTS for propagating NON - apostolic teachings.

    There is also the discrepancy with Rev 22 where those who have washed their robes are admitted into the heavenly Jerusalem.

    "What a tangled web they weave..." (The next line ends with Deceive)

    Thanx B. I do such deep study with your posts.

    HB

  • ziddina
    ziddina

    Nice sleight-of-hand by the WTBTS here... "Paul also helps us to understand that those with an earthly hope do not partake of the Memorial emblems. He said to anointed Christians: "For as often as you eat this loaf and drink this cup, you keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives." ..."

    Supposedly, Paul "helps us to understand..." about those with the "earthly" hope, but that "understanding" actually didn't come to light until the 1930's...

    So Paul's comments, "For as often as you eat this loaf and drink this cup," etc, etc... - actually have NOTHING to do with any fulfillment of the "144,000" number, symbolic or otherwise...

    (Groan.....) Zid...

  • hamsterbait
    hamsterbait

    If the Gibbering Buddy REALLY believed Christ arrived with Kingly Power in 1914, WHY OH WHY are they still doing it?

    Can anybody reference the talk by one of the GB where he said Jesus comes, seven times in different ways?

    (Sorry - but I am thinking PORN here - they obviously saw this stuff if the explicit descriptions in the Ragazines mean anything...)

    HB

  • hamsterbait
    hamsterbait

    There is not a single verse in the NT that says that some of the congregation SHOULD NOT TAKE THE EMBLEMS. Not a single ONE. DE NADA.

    They are LIARS. (I am sorry to be getting mad right now - the last few days have been something of an epiphany. Give me the courage when I need it to open my big mouth...)

    HB

  • Titus
    Titus

    THE MEMORIAL IS ONLY ABOUT PARTAKING! Isn't it? Pargraph 16 clearly says:

    If, though, those who will live forever on earth were entitled to partake of the emblems, then this Memorial meal would need to continue forever.

    So, if there is no partaker, there is no need to have the Memorial.

    Why then do all congregations have to observe the Memorial, if in most of them nobody partakes?

    No, don't scroll down, answer me the question! Why?

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