The Beginning of the End for Me?

by rem 37 Replies latest jw experiences

  • rem
    rem

    Well, friends, this could be the beginning of the end for me. I’m not sure what, if anything, is going to happen to me in the next few weeks, so I’ll have to wait and see. Here’s the situation:

    My wife and I moved to another house outside of our congregation’s territory a couple weeks back. We had not told anyone from our congregation our new address. Well, Saturday morning the doorbell rang as I was opening the garage door to do some organizing. I was expecting a friend to come by, so I met the visitor at the door and I was shocked to find that the visitor was an Elder from my congregation. My first thought was “how did they find me!!??”. Perhaps they called my in-laws for the new address or something. Then the elder asked me to join him at his parked car where another elder was sitting (he is disabled from a recent surgery).

    Well, I was completely caught off guard by all of this. The first elder said that they were just making the rounds and wanted to discuss something with me. It seems that a sister in my congregation became very distraught at finding a Listmania recommended reading list on Amazon.com by yours truly that includes several “apostate” books. The sister notified the elders of what she found and they wanted to schedule a time for me to meet with them and yet another elder. I refused the meeting stating that there was really nothing to discuss – in the spirit of Proverbs 18:17 I was just providing the other side of the story that anybody could read so as to come to an informed conclusion. My stance was that there is nothing to hide and that the truth should prevail, so there should be no danger in recommending books. They were concerned that I represented my self as a “Former Ministerial Servant” on Amazon.com (which I am). They felt that that title gave an air of authority to my recommended reading list that could cause unnecessary doubts in the minds of the brothers and sisters.

    Anyway, I made the list a few months back and I suppose it came from a sense of apathy within me. I don’t really care if I get DF’d or not. Well, actually I do care for my wife’s family’s sake, but I just get sick of having to walk on egg shells all of the time. I guess that is why I made the list under my real name. I think I also used the rational that my recommended reading list only comes up if someone specifically searches for “jehovahs witnesses” or something similar to that on Amazon.com. As most here know, there are not many Witness friendly books out there, so someone who saw my list was probably already looking at Crisis of Conscience or something.

    This conversation spanned a couple of hours in the cold outside of my new house. We talked on all range of subjects including the UN debacle (which one of the elders was unawares, and the other downplayed unsuccessfully), Evolution (that was fun!), 1914, Ray Franz, the bible as inspired of god, my baptism when I was 13 years old, etc. etc., and including if I still consider myself a Witness. The one elder commented, “So do you consider yourself an Agnostic or a Witness or what?” to which I responded, “Actually, I think you put it quite well – I’m an Agnostic Witness.” I specifically mentioned that I have no desire to disassociate myself.

    So now I’m not sure of what will happen next. I didn’t tell them anything that I haven’t already told them in previous meetings. I just left it at I’m still searching and I still consider myself a witness, but I am definitely doing the slow fade and I would appreciate being left alone. I could not determine whether this was a judicial investigation or anything – they seemed to want to “help” me, to which I answered that they tried to help me over a year ago and the only thing they could tell me is that my concerns were not important. I didn’t see any value in rehashing all of those issues over again (though it would be fun). They weren’t going to change my views unless they had some brand new light that I haven’t heard about yet.

    They seemed to genuinely care for me, which I appreciated. I still have tender feelings for these guys, but I’m not good at reading people and I couldn’t tell whether the this was going to get ugly down the road or not. I’m wondering if it’s too late for me. I could just let things run their course and accept the “consequences” as they put it, which I suppose would include DF’ing. It wouldn’t ruin my life, but it would make certain family functions uncomfortable (or even non-existent). Or I could go the Lawyer route and threaten to sue the elders for defamation of character and emotional turmoil ala AlanF, but I’m not sure if I want to go through all of that or if it’s even too late to do so.

    I guess the next few weeks might be interesting. Could they DF me without having a meeting? Do they have to disclose that a meeting is Judicial in nature? (Because I didn’t get that feeling) Is it too late for me to pursue legal options? Should I take down my Listmania book recommendations? This is the first time that I’ve ever felt like they’ve got me on something that could be considered a DF’ing offence (though I’m not sure what that would be in the spirit of Proverbs 18:17). I know it was my own stupidity and apathy that brought this on, but I suppose I’ve already helped many to see both sides of the organization and to make their own informed decision, including my family and some friends.

    Any thoughts from the premier Jehovah’s Witness discussion forum on the Internet?

    rem

    "We all do no end of feeling, and we mistake it for thinking." - Mark Twain
  • outnfree
    outnfree

    rem,

    When I distributed my disassociation letter, the PO called me and asked for a meeting at my home with another brother. That was inconvenient for me, so then he asked if I would be willing to come to the Kingdom Hall on a meeting night and meet with the brothers there. I agreed.

    After the meeting, there was first a meeting of the entire elder body -- all of whom had received a copy of my letter. Then, THREE of the elders met with me.

    As there were three of them, I specifically asked if this was a judicial committee meeting. They said, "No." Nonetheless, it went as I imagine all JCs go, with one brother taking notes and the other two doing most of the questioning. It lasted more than 2 hours. The brothers seemed kind and concerned. Because of similar kindly-towards-them feelings as you described, I agreed to a plan of action that they outlined to help me. (Needless to say, it didn't work.)

    Now, I don't know where your particular elder body is going to go with you discipline-wise, but I do believe you can trust them when they say the meeting will not be a judicial committee meeting. However, it WILL be the information gathering meeting (with two or more witnesses) that will be used should a JC be the next step they wish to take. So measure your words and be awared that DFing is a possible consequence depending on what you say and your general attitude.

    Good luck!

    outnfree

    It's what you learn after you know it all that counts -- John Wooden

  • Mulan
    Mulan

    It is my understanding, that if you verbally say you don't consider yourself to be a witness, that it is the same as submitting a letter, as long as there are witnesses to your saying it. They can df you. I try to never answer that question, no matter who asks it. (except my trusted family) I can't even say it to my mother.

    Marilyn (a.k.a. Mulan)
    "No one can take advantage of you, without your permission." Ann Landers

  • bluesapphire
    bluesapphire

    Mulan, how do you answer it? I already blew my answer but I wanted to know what you say to successfully dodge the loaded question.

  • Mulan
    Mulan

    Hi, I say "do you consider me to be a JW?" If they say "yes", I would ask why they haven't called on me in four years." If they say "no", I ask "why do you need me to take a formal action?" I always answer their questions with a question. I am a master at being evasive, and I will NOT play into their plans for us. So far, the only ones who have asked are former friends. No elders yet.

    (edited to add quotation marks)
    Marilyn (a.k.a. Mulan)
    "No one can take advantage of you, without your permission." Ann Landers

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    Rem,

    I feel for you and I hope you do the right thing for you and your wife.

    I know what with you mean about walking on eggs shells, I never was one to do that with the WT. I'm being shunned by some family members but feel in time they will leave the WT because they know me and my personality and will be questioning the Org and I know some are already, they are just afraid to do anything yet but I know they will just give it time.

    I hope you and you wife don't become victims, but are able to make the best of your situation with the WT.

    What to do is hard to say but if they want to DF you give them a good run for their money. Make it as hard for them as you can, you will get some satifaction from that.

    If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
  • Hmmm
    Hmmm
    Should I take down my Listmania book recommendations? This is the first time that I’ve ever felt like they’ve got me on something that could be considered a DF’ing offence (though I’m not sure what that would be in the spirit of Proverbs 18:17). I know it was my own stupidity and apathy that brought this on, but I suppose I’ve already helped many to see both sides of the organization and to make their own informed decision, including my family and some friends.

    I get the feeling that you were torpedoing yourself. It seems that, maybe subconsciously, you don't care any more about getting caught, so you did things (posting Listmania recommendations) that were bound to expose you eventually.

    If it's really important for you to stay in, you should probably take the list down. You can tell the elders that you were having doubts, but you're "all better now" and removing the list is proof of that.

    Just curious, Rem, how long did you have the list up? Did you tell others about it, or was it random surfing that discovered it? When I'm ready to go public, I'm thinking of just posting my picture here or something, and seeing how long it takes to be discovered. My little experiment.

    Any thoughts from the premier Jehovah’s Witness discussion forum on the Internet?
    I don't know, I'll go ask Witnessesonline.com

    (kidding Simon!)

    I enjoy your posts, rem
    hmmm

  • rem
    rem

    Thanks for the kind words, guys!

    Hmmm,

    Yeah, I suppose you are right. I did torpedo myself in a way. I just didn't care anymore, but then I forgot about it. I probably had the list up for a few months, so when the elders brought it up I was thinking "oh crap, I totally forgot about that!" I never told anyone about it. Someone must have searched for Jehovah's Witness books on Amazon to find it - I think it comes up because of the key words Jehovah's Witness. The person must have recognized my name and said, "Hmmm, I wonder what rem will recommend? AAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!" (I'd pay money to see that sister's expression when she saw my recommendations. I bet she was shaking like a leaf LOL!)

    As far as putting my picture up here, someone (not a witness) recognized me within days. So far I've heard of no witnesses recognizing me on this board yet. It might be a good idea for me to take the picture down and lay low for a bit until this blows over. I can't delete the Listmania recommendations, but I can edit the list, so I'll probably change it to some other subject that is benign.

    Thanks for the props, man!

    rem

    "We all do no end of feeling, and we mistake it for thinking." - Mark Twain
  • Valis
    Valis

    If you are true to yourself there is no sitting on the fence. Either leave, or stay and "repent". Don't like that word? Sorry, its the only way to go back to being a JW. It gets boring/pathetic listening to people who sit on the fence and entertain the idea that they can be educated, aware of the "truth", and realize they don't have to go to the KH 3 times a week and put up w/assholes to have a relationship w/the Dog of thier choice. If the family was walking on egg shells then they will still have relations w/you. If not, then maybe they need the change of heart and not you, as well you have new pioneer mission. Free the flock from the pensive, but "not sure of dates" pen. If indeed your course of action led to a major change in life the just remember the leper w/his own book of the bible, oh and read R.H.Hienlien's account of Job as well......

  • dedalus
    dedalus

    Valis,

    Either leave, or stay and "repent".
    These aren't the only two legitimate possibilities. In fact, it's exactly this sort of unqualified black-and-white attitude that makes Witness doctrine so offensive to begin with. I applaud REM's notion of an "agnostic Witness." I don't think he is sitting on the fence -- on the contrary, he's been open in a public forum about his views and his identity, and he hasn't compromised that. How carefully did you read his post, Valis? Personally, I think it gets boring/pathetic when people pretend to have the last word about a thing they don't even understand.

    REM,

    You're my hero, man! However did they find you? Anyway, I'm deeply impressed by your calm honesty in the situation -- it doesn't seem like you had a particular ax to grind, that you used the situation to step up on a soapbox and let loose some half-cocked invective against the Organization. I hope that, when I'm in a similar situation someday, I can present myself as intelligently as you did.

    People like us, I was once told by an impartial observer, have to live in a very real way with "the big questions." How many others of our generation have to struggle with religious and philosophical issues, knowing that their thinking will affect their lives and relationships in a very real way? Sometimes being an ex-Witness is a pain in the ass, but perhaps it makes us better, more thoughtful individuals, in a world that doesn't nurture the sort of thinking you've had to do.

    Anyway, I'll be in touch soon with an e-mail. Lots going on, lots to say!

    Dedalus

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