Why FAITH is actually a form of suicide (page 5)

Terry

People have taken on board what you have said. But while seeing faith as a threat to rationality are not yet certain that it amounts to suicide. Suicide is the total and deliberate obliteration of self. A desperate act of people who have lost the will to live. Faith while dubious is, me thinks, a lesser evil? Perhaps we have some way to travel down the road to catch up with you.

A crowd is not a person.

A group is not a person.

An organization in not a person.

Yet, they contain many people.

The collective absorbs the units.

What makes a person different from the crowd?

Think of Where's Waldo? Thousands of characters spread out over a page and your eye is scanning for the tall dude in that red and white striped shirt and cap wearing horn-rimmed glasses.

When you become a teenager you MUST differentiate from your family in order to become an individual. These are the years of so-called "rebellion". You become different while retaining the best (or worst) traits of your family and peer group.

The disambiguation process can be superficial (tatoos, wild hair, crazy music tastes, etc) or profound--but, unless and until the process takes place you are just "the kid" or "my son" or one of the "Anderson family", "a student", etc.

I'm trying to focus on the mental identity of a thinking person regarding his own original world view which is HIS/HERS alone!

Important question: WHAT MAKES YOU.....YOU?

If you think like the group you are in and are not allowed (and do not attempt) to think your OWN thoughts...what are you?

If you are absorbed into a belief system how do you remain a unique individual without loss of self?

This is what I'm trying to discuss here.

CHRISTIANITY and becoming CHRISTIAN is often stated backwards. As though the individual absorbs the beliefs rather than the beliefs absorbing the person.

Yet, clearly, one must DIE in order to be BORN AGAIN. What is this death but the death of the SELF?

It is not merely a convenient metaphor.

Once you....the "real" you dies to your "old life" and becomes born again into CHRISTIANITY the unique thinking mind which distinguishes YOU from all those other Christians flickers like a candle in a drafty room.

What does a JW pride himself on if not being like every other JW everywhere else in the world? They all agree...on EVERYTHING!

This is the ultimate DEATH OF SELF!

I've seen no serious discussion of this actual process.

Gladiator came closest.

THE GLADIATOR

mindmelda I enjoyed your posts, though some of your comments leave me confused about your view of life.

The idea of a random universe is to me, more appealing that the concept of a vengeful God breathing down my neck. Nature’s behavior I can accept but willful acts of sabotage by a calculating god are another matter.

BurnTheShips

If you are absorbed into a belief system how do you remain a unique individual without loss of self?

You already participate in a belief system, Terry. Everyone does.

Yet, clearly, one must DIE in order to be BORN AGAIN. What is this death but the death of the SELF?

Terry. You die every instant. Every instant you are born again. This is called "change."

But let's get serious.

Christianity is a disease.

Here is the cure.

The TERRYNATOR!

BTS

THE GLADIATOR

Terry

Your opening post used the analogy: You can't fire me--I quit!"

This preserves one's dignity and autonomy in the face of an insuperable event.

This is not the same as: "You can't fire me--I commit suicide!"

Suicide does not preserve one’s dignity and autonomy. The person that quits, lives to fight another day, or to work somewhere else.

This is why I see religious faith as an impairment to rationality, not always an act of suicide or self annihilation. A person can change their mind or lose their faith but a suicide leaves no room for maneuver.

Christians claim to be born again which implies death. It is just another illusion. They do not die; they are not really born again. They are just on a trip. Drugs can produce the same effect.

Suicide is final whereas there are degrees of loss in the matter of faith. People with a low opinion of themselves, often feel they have gained by replacing self with a group identity.

I can see your point, though.

Faith like drugs, can ultimately be responsible for death of the rational mind, even the body. Collective faith is surrender to a group identity that causes the loss of self.

Mystics claim that the idea of a self is an illusion and the way to enlightenment is to break away from western thinking and realize there is no self. In most cases the requirement of putting faith in, or offering our life to an invisible God, is surrender of the self, the loss of self.

not a captive

We are making good faith efforts to understand, Terry

It could be that I disagree with conflating religious faith and genuine faith.

If you use the WTS as the reference point for "faith" then I will never understand what you mean. I had reasonable evidence of God before going into the Organization--faith grew from that. The WTS shoots down any evidence of God that they do not channel for the "brotherhood". Their "faith" isn't faith at all.

You don't accept the idea that faith does have a rational and personal base, do you?

Terry

I can see your point, though.

Faith like drugs, can ultimately be responsible for death of the rational mind, even the body. Collective faith is surrender to a group identity that causes the loss of self.

Pithy. Better than I was able to do!

JimmyPage

LOL @ LeavingWT's T shirt cartoon!

not a captive

Francisco “Pachico” Mayoral

Pachico, a coastal fisherman for 45 years, became the chosen one. On a winter day in 1972 Pachico was fishing in the Lagoon when a gray whale approached his small 18 foot wooden panga - a typical Baja open boat similar to a dory. Until that day there had been no known contact between gray whales and man without one or the other ending up dead.

Pachico tried to get away from the whale, but with every attempt the whale would surface next to the panga. Knowing little about whales at the time, Pachico knew the large marine mammal double the size of his panga was now in charge. The whale went under the panga, not giving Pachico an option other than staying still. Pachico was surprised that the whale wasn’t showing any signs of aggression; as the old fisherman tales had described. Instead, the whale gently rubbed itself against his panga, raised its head a couple feet out of the water right where Pachico was sitting. Though fearful, he timidly reached out his hand to the gray whale and touched it with his fingers. To his amazement the whale didn’t back away, but instead moved closer to him. Pachico soon realized that petting the giant was OK. The gray whale had chosen Pachico to be the first human to experience a close and friendly relationship. On that winter day, in San Ignacio Lagoon, the gray whale and man began to trust one another.

Returning to the fishing village that day, Pachico told the story of the friendly gray whale. Everyone in the Lagoon thought he was out of his mind. Pachico started taking his friends out in the Lagoon and they soon discovered that what he had told them was true. The word spread and soon visitors and those wanting to have the same encounter arrived to experience this wonderful new relationship between man and the gray whales.

The gray whales, that had been hunted and abused by for so many years, had now forgiven man and had reached out for a new and better relationship.

Pachico has been involved in many different projects related to the whales in San Ignacio Lagoon. He has worked with researchers, scientists, and documentary filmmakers. Pachico's mesmerizing experiences with the whales have also been documented in many different books, magazines and films.

Pachico has resided in San Ignacio Lagoon, (Laguna San Ignacio) since 1960. He is married to Carmen Aguilar, who has lived in San Ignacio for her entire life. Carmen’s father was one of the founders of the Lagoon. Pachico and Carmen have 6 children who were all raised with the shores of the Lagoon as their front yard.

Pachico still drives his panga with the gray whales. He is always willing to share his knowledge, experiences and great stories of over 30 years of watching the gray whales. Today, Pachico and his family organize and lead tours in the San Ignacio Lagoon.

cyberjesus

Someone who takes his life has no more hope. That was the end of the story. Someone who has FAITH and loses his "SELF" doesn't also lose hope. Because if like a lot of us. Once we get rid of that FAITH we have the chance to get back our SELF if we had one before or create a new SELF. So in a sense Suicide is different because in Suicide there is no more hope but in Faith there is(pun intended).

Faith is a form of "spiritual" suicide, because in the spiritual meaning we also have the hope of resurrection. If we suicide our Self by having FAITH, we have the hope of resurrecting our SELF by getting rid of that FAITH.

not a captive

Collective faith is surrender to a group identity that causes the loss of self

There is no such thing as collective faith. Form a collective with a group identity and you only have a religious brand. If anyone thinks that faith in God is derived from group indoctrination they have been completely brainwashed.

Just because different religions have what they call "Articles of Faith", that doesn't mean that their members have faith. A religion defines itself by defining its members, the religion demands the surrender of individuality. Religion tells us that God deals with us the way a farmer deals with broiler house chickens.

Faith is not in religion.

Why FAITH is actually a form of suicide

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