What hope is there then?

by sayitsnotso 290 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    Welcome Sayitsnotso.

    I have just jumped onto this thread so have not read all 14 pages, so sorry if I repeat anything.

    You started saying if there is no paradise earth then there is nothing. Even though you somewhat clarify this as referring not just to life on earth it still was an interesting faux par common to JWs. I often hear "only JWs have hope because only we believe in paradise". Such rubbish. Almost all religions have a hope of a resurrection. In fact, the Watchtower hope is not as comforting as the thought of a heavenly resurrection. As a JW your loved one dies and is gone, hoping for a future resurrection sometime... As a Christian the belief is the loved one is immediately resurrected to heaven and looks over you. That is far more comforting.

    A further consideration is that as a JW, since the soul dies the person is non-existent. And so what comes back is a photocopy or clone of the dead person, not the person themselves. In that case, what is to stop God making multiple clones, or even cloning you whilst you are still alive. Is a photocopy really you?

    When I left I no longer knew what to believe. A resurrection no longer seemed likely. Yet my daily happiness did not change. If anything, it increased. I no longer fear the tortures of Armageddon and the fear I was not worthy of the new system. Each day continued as it had, experiencing the pleasures of life as much as before, more-so without the burden of Watchtower guilt. If I die and am gone I will not know about it; if I am resurrected then that should be ok too.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    sayitsnotso Welcome to JWN! It's a little late for me to enter this discussion. It seems everyone wants your attention all at once. So let me just say, please keep coming back and maybe we can meet on another thread.

  • sacolton
    sacolton

    Sayitsnotso, what does the bible say about religion?

    James 1:27

    Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

    Straight from God the Father. Now, does the WATCHTOWER provide care for widows and orphans? Does the WATCHTOWER have an orphanage? If so, where? Does the WATCHTOWER provide assisted living for widows? If so, where? Which charities does the WATCHTOWER support? You will find in your research (if you dare) that the WATCHTOWER is only interested in its monetary assets (real estate). Have you asked yourself why the headquarters is moving from Brooklyn to Walkill when Armageddon is "so close"?

  • undercover
    undercover
    I'm here on this forum because I have some doubts deep down inside about what I've been taught is really the 'truth.' I think that is obvious. The 12 points I listed are the things that make sense to me about what a religion that is pleases to God and based on the bible should believe.

    Okay, good. An admittance to having doubts. This is the first step...and a good one. In addition to the 12 steps that are things that you feel point to the religion being true, you should also list the things about the religion that causes you to have doubts or things that you disagree with. Continuing to reflect on just the "good" doesn't face your doubts.

    They (GB) don't really know anything more than we do about the nearness of the end. Yet at every convention the information provided stressess more and more how close we are. I forget exactly where, at the special day assembly, it was mentioned that a certain scripture Jehovah was, via the holy spirit, helping the GB to understand that it was applying to our time right now. It had to do with either getting ready for the end or building our faith up stronger. Something like that. Everyone seems to be talking about the nearness of the end more than any other topic.

    Another good sign. Instead of accepting them at their word, test out that what they say. Of course, they don't want you to, they want you to just obey, but the Bible gives examples of people who did test out what was taught. Compare their track record in past predictions. Compare how they went about convincing people in the past to believe to how they try to convince people now to believe.

    My defensive statements here are simply because this is what I have been taught. I've been told apostates resort to lies and half-truths, want to make decipiles of themselves, are bitter, want the org to change it's stance on matters (blood, disfellowshipping, etc) because it affects them directly not because of doctrinal soundness, that they are unhappy, that they are poison, etc. So obviously I have a strong sckeptisim to what is said here. I've also been told not to listen to what apostates say (obvisouly). However, how can one truly claim to have an open mind, to be reaonsable, and to seek truth, without looking at all sides of an issue?

    Exactly...how can one have an open mind, if not willing to look at both sides of the issues. So you have to ask - why doesn't the leadership want me to look at both sides? Why are those who speak out against their teachings labeled so harshly? "Apostate" is a cult buzzword. They create a model of what an apostate is so when a JW meets resistance or opposition from former members they immediately fear that person as "apostate"...something evil and possessed. Apostates are not an organized group, seeking to bring down the WT. Most apostates are people who just tired of the lies and/or the unloving attitude of some and left. Some are bitter. Some are more militant. Some are not quite right in the head. But most are just ordinary people who have been hurt by this organization. As you read through these 14 pages...and other threads...see if you see the "apostates" that you were warned about. The fact that you posted here...and have continued to do so...shows that maybe you know that the WTS depictions of those who choose to leave may not be true.

    All my family and friends are in the truth. I love them all dearly. If I stopped, I am certain they would not listen as they do not seem to have any doubts what so ever and are very much caught up in the 'we-are-so-close' mentality, save perhaps one. I'm very active right now and if I slowed down I know that would raise some red flags.

    Many of us are in the same exact boat. I am. My family are all JWs. I have to tread lightly whenever I criticize the bOrg. I had to slowly fade away and become inactive. I never DAd or was DFd. My name is still on the books. But as far as I'm concerned, I no longer believe, will no longer have anything to do with that organization. It hurts my family and it has caused some issues but as time has gone by, it has become apparent that I'm not coming back, so they accept it and go on about their deluded lives. And I've learned that they have as much right to believe it as much as I do to not. It's just that I'm not afforded that right as far as they're concerned. You'll see that as time goes by if you start to take a stand.

    I still feel the GB though is not being malicious. I think they are scincere. They have had all these concepts ingrained in them for so long now. I think they really believe they are trying to protect God's people. I think some people look to deeply for dirt on them (i.e. REGI. U.S. stock).

    What if they are sincere? Maybe the pope is sincere. Maybe the Mormon president is sincere. I work with a born-again Baptist preacher...I know he is sincere; he's still wrong, but he's sincere. Just because they may be sincere doesn't mean that they are the leaders of the one true religion. If the evidence piles up against them it doesn't matter how sincere they are if they're still wrong. Why do owe them anything if they're wrong?

    Here's where the indoctrination is apparent: you're putting too much emphasis on the GB. This group of men has put themselves on this pedestal, replacing Christ as your mediator. Jesus is the head of the Christian congregation, not the GB. You've seen it....the GB speaks and all the good little dubbies fall in line obeying and almost worshipping these men. But the scales are falling off your eyes and your starting to see.

    Yet there are also many sincere people that are happy and like to help others. These seem to be the majority of the very active ones. These are the ones I enjoy being around and add happiness to my own life. So to leave this behind would be very difficult to do.

    There are many sincere people in all religions. It can be said that most other religions do more to help others than JWs. Aside from their disaster relief work (which has some interesting scandals with it, I might add) what charities does the WT run to help people? The import of the WTS has been preaching, not helping the poor or distressed. And the preaching is a means to an end...to gain more converts who become peddlers of the publications and who donate to the coffers.

    Yes...leaving is very difficult. It comes down to how bad do you want to be free of a false religious organization vs being around family and friends who don't see the man behind the curtain. In the end, it's your call, your decision. Some have seen the lies of the WTS and know that it's false but yet have gone back or stay in, just to make life easier. Maybe it works for some, but I know for me, that I can't let this organization run my life or coerce me to do its bidding.

    I do wish you good luck (despite the WT's fear of that term). It won't be easy to be honest with yourself. You'll lose sleep....you'll doubt yourself or your research from one day to the next. It take time to come to grips with what you learn about this organization.

    But if you're willing to come here to find answers...or at least be able to voice your doubts without being harrassed by those still zealous, you may be one who can't live within an organizational structure of lies and deceit.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    Okay a few thoughts:

    1) I'm here on this forum because I have some doubts deep down inside about what I've been taught is really the 'truth.' I think that is obvious. The 12 points I listed are the things that make sense to me about what a religion that is pleases to God and based on the bible should believe.

    2) Yet, despite that 12-point list, I can see that the GB's claim to being led by the Jehovah is becomming harder and harder to believe. They don't really know anything more than we do about the nearness of the end. Yet at every convention the information provided stressess more and more how close we are. I forget exactly where, at the special day assembly, it was mentioned that a certain scripture Jehovah was, via the holy spirit, helping the GB to understand that it was applying to our time right now. It had to do with either getting ready for the end or building our faith up stronger. Something like that. Everyone seems to be talking about the nearness of the end more than any other topic.

    3) My defensive statements here are simply because this is what I have been taught. I've been told apostates resort to lies and half-truths, want to make decipiles of themselves, are bitter, want the org to change it's stance on matters (blood, disfellowshipping, etc) because it affects them directly not because of doctrinal soundness, that they are unhappy, that they are poison, etc. So obviously I have a strong sckeptisim to what is said here. I've also been told not to listen to what apostates say (obvisouly). However, how can one truly claim to have an open mind, to be reaonsable, and to seek truth, without looking at all sides of an issue?

    4) All my family and friends are in the truth. I love them all dearly. If I stopped, I am certain they would not listen as they do not seem to have any doubts what so ever and are very much caught up in the 'we-are-so-close' mentality, save perhaps one. I'm very active right now and if I slowed down I know that would raise some red flags.

    5) I also have considered that perhaps many of the things people doubt about being true about the 'truth' are indeed incorrect, but perhaps Jehovah is allowing this to test people's loyalty to his organization (if the god's organization claim is true). Yes, JWs are hung up on this point and how can you blaim them? It's been so ingrained!

    6) I still feel the GB though is not being malicious. I think they are scincere. They have had all these concepts ingrained in them for so long now. I think they really believe they are trying to protect God's people. I think some people look to deeply for dirt on them (i.e. REGI. U.S. stock).

    7) It's obvious that the org is not perfect. That many have the mentality of following men. An people do get mistreated at times. Yet there are also many sincere people that are happy and like to help others. These seem to be the majority of the very active ones. These are the ones I enjoy being around and add happiness to my own life. So to leave this behind would be very difficult to do......sayitsnotso

    I think thats the First Honest post You`ve Written..

    There may be hope for you yet..

    .......................... ...OUTLAW

  • Billy Pilgrim
    Billy Pilgrim

    JW-facts wrote:

    " ... as a JW, since the soul dies the person is non-existent. And so what comes back is a photocopy or clone of the dead person, not the person themselves. In that case, what is to stop God making multiple clones, or even cloning you whilst you are still alive. Is a photocopy really you?"

    I brought this "no-soul resurrection dilemma" up years ago. How could a copy of oneself be the original person? It brought up the possibility of sitting in a room with a copy of yourself -- you, but not you. At the time the apostasy paranoia and hysteria was racing out of control so I was never able to really discuss it with JWs.

  • yknot
    yknot

    Say it not so......

    I am sorry for all the gut-wrenching that lays ahead of you..... most of us went through this process too, you will survive, you will be stronger in the end but you will not ever be the same as you were before.....

    We, this forum, are here for you, to emotionally support you and to give you a place to vent, be angry, seek clarification and grieve.....

    You are waking up.

    It doesn't matter how much you try and push your realizations aside, you will continue to see the manipulation, hypocrisy, and false premises.

    This 'spiritual sickness' as it is called in the Org, is terminal.

    I didn't want to have it when I first realized my diagnosis, I wanted my life to be as it was.....

    It will all be okay ........ you just have to navigate the waters of friends and family carefully.

    You have to breathe, don't fight it- (it only makes the pain last longer than needed), let things wash over you........when it unravels realize it for what it is and live your life being the good person you always have been.

    You don't need to save the world, you change the world by being the best person you can be.

    ___________________________________________________________________________

    The statistics (Pew Report- in fact this very Pew Report was quoted in the July 09's Awake!) show tht 63% of born or raised JWs leave (that means they openly identify themselves as not one of JWs), the remaining 37% are not entirely loyal either.......especially amongst those born 1965 and later. We of that percentage are called 'conscious class'. Conscious class JWs are slowly fading or have accepted they are in it for the long-haul but end up faking field service, peppering talks with thought provoking commentary (whether borderline apostate or UBERisms that are over the top), don't donate, and report back from the trenches.

    You will be part of us for awhile........ we are many, we discern the game

    Sisterly hugs.

  • sacolton
    sacolton

    We were just like you, sayitisnotso. I was never disfellowshipped. I never had a Judicial Committee. I researched the history of the organization and followed-up on its numerous false prophecies since its origins. Want to see? (http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/88.htm) Saw the pyramid tombstone of Charles Taze Russell. Read about Beth Sarim and the 1925 false prophecy of the "ancient worthies" Abraham, Issac and Jacob being resurrected to live in San Diego, California and have two 12-cylinder Cadillacs to drive. How the Governing Body makes doctrinal changes - there is no "spirit-directed communication" - they just vote on it.

    Keep asking questions. That's a luxury that most Jehovah's Witnesses aren't allowed to do.

  • sayitsnotso
    sayitsnotso

    Thanks for the comments. I wish I could say more about some of my other thoughts and questions but I feel those are to personal or revealing to share in a public forum (this post has had close to 4000 views).

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    sayitsnotso..

    You don`t want to post personal info here..

    Others have done that and ended up in a JC meeting..

    It did`nt go well for them..

    You can post here without putting yourself at risk..

    Just be smart about it..

    .......................... ...OUTLAW

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