by Terry 41 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
.in fact, my view is that PRECISELY because I can't explain it and my brain is not capable of fathoming all its secrets, therefore I do most definitely believe in the SUPERNATURAL.
The Fallacy of the Appeal to Ignorance:
An appeal to ignorance is an argument for a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against it. A lack of evidence by itself is no evidence.
Terry
And those two statements are identical? What if I substituted the word "superfluous" for "unnecessary"?
To me, in the spirit of OCCAM'S RAZOR, asserting the existence of an imaginary "nature" beyond the real one is not only unnecessary and
superfluous it is confusing, as well.
Kinda like string theory.
Terry, maybe I should have just left it at WHY NOT?!
Am I a proponent of String Theory?
Am I a proponent of String Theory?
There may be a "bad Terry" in parallel universe who is a proponent of it. Actually, most serious scientists have pretty much moved on to expanded string theory ideas now - membranes, supersymmetry, and such. None of these have anything to do the the Supernatural, they are attempts to mathematically model the Natural.
JWoods
So, parallel universes where natural laws don't apply, are mathematical models of the natural?
Yea, right.
So, parallel universes where natural laws don't apply, are mathematical models of the natural?
That was said in jest as a joke with Terry. I do not believe in parallel universes.
String Theory is/was an attempt to explain fundamental particle physics in the actual universe. Thus far, after at least a couple decades, it has not worked out and is being expanded into other theories.
JWoods
You may have been joking, but many scientist aren't/weren't.
From: http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory
There are many different versions of string theory, and none of them are fully accurate. Often, many of them use only good guesses. String theory proponents say this is because the theory is not finished yet.
Another problem is that the mathematical laws of string theory also gives lots of different possible solutions. Scientists that believe in string theory work around this problem by picking only the results that match our observations and saying that later we will find why the other ones are not good. Opponents argue that we can't ever know if a theory is true as a whole if we only take the bits that work. This also makes the theory of little use until the issue is solved, because mathematical laws are usually used to predict what will happen in a situation - but string theory cannot yet answer that question, because it needs to be tried first and then scientists can pick the answers that work.
Yet another problem is that it says our universe is made of at least 10 dimensions, while we only see four (width, height, depth, time). String theory proponents say some dimensions may not be visible to us, but others doubt there can be 6 or more hidden dimensions, or that we will never be able to access them even if they do exist.
String theory does not make guesses that can actually be tested by scientists today or in the near future. Some people say this makes the theory unscientific.
Terry:
How do you know there isn't a "supernatural" force that is causing your foot to wag and pull the sheets off you that's the force behind it all?
Hey man, I’m just messing with you. I couldn’t resist. But to address the issue your raised (“Why believe in the Supernatural”), I take it you raised it only to tear it down, since you question the very significance of Supernaturalism. Yeah, it’s just another place to hang up your hat if you can’t explain certain things in logical or verifiable terms. But let me throw a ringer at you. You believe in a physical universe with causes and effects. I suppose you accept everything you conceive is in it and you need no elaborate explanations that define what is observable either through sight or experimentation, hence Occam’s razor. So, the simplest solution is usually the right one and one doesn’t need a more elaborate one to explain an event or question. OK. I’ll buy that. Is that the answer each and every time? Well, we need to leave room for more.
Here’s the kicker. I thought once that Science could progressively find sufficient answers so we could “build” the universe from scratch, I mean at least on paper as a theory. I expected that the discoveries and refinements of natural laws (gravity, electromagnetism, etc) would eventually lead to an orderly progression of what really makes up the universe and why it works the way it does. The problem is that we end up in quandary. If we come up with a theory or set of rules based on some deductions, we are inevitably drawn to come up with another theory (a meta-theory) that explains the rules we came up with in the first place and then we need a meta-meta-theory, etc, etc. It’s like having sex without an orgasm. While that sounds good, it’s very frustrating.
So it was that we had a great theory in Quantum Mechanics. But as we kept “looking” deeper and deeper into the subatomic, we found that the very laws we used to peer with just broke down and made no sense at all. The behavior of particles becomes totally chaotic. Now what? I guess we have a choice to forget about everything that’s considered progress in physics and just keep going on to our jobs and watching TV or whatever and not be concerned at all with the big issues. Well, that’s one way to do things and I don’t knock it at all. For others, in order to know the implications of what we examine in the quantum and to make sense of it all, a new explanation is needed. Enter Super Symmetry! Let me state before I go on (since a comment was made that I don’t agree with) that my understanding is that “String Theory” is resolved and is a viable postulate. There were several version of a “String Theory” but they were finally united because of Super Symmetry (SUSY). The problem is that current top String Theory cannot be verified. Verification (experimentation) is the hallmark of any Natural Sciences. Now, there seems to be another theory that proposes to explain the problems in Quantum Physics and marry the esotericism of String Theory to the “familiar” properties of Quantum Physics. It is called the “Wave Structure of Matter” or WSM. Among one of the dichotomies it does away with is the Jekyll and Hyde characteristic of the photon, being both a wave and a particle. While I’m personally intrigued by this, it will be a long time before we move away from our current understanding and accept this new thing. I’ll be long dead by then. The point is that it never stops and it shouldn’t. If we ever have all the answers then Science ceases to exist and there will be no more questions to ask. You could say that SUSY and WSM are “Supernatural” explanations in for the nature of matter since they are presently outside the realm of any verifiable experimentation. So, do I believe in the Supernatural? In that sense: yes.
There was a time when the world explanation of matter was that everything consisted of four “elements”: water, fire, earth and air. If you really think about it, you can still say that this is mostly true about almost everything we observe that’s physical. But we didn’t stop there. And, while Newton was a brilliantly outstanding dude, he was wrong about things that had tremendous implications. Einstein kicked some major intellectual ass but may have been wrong in certain areas since some evidence shows that the speed of light is not constant relative to the observer. Oh shit, the universe is going to blow up!
Mindmelda mentioned that many things that were once considered magical (supernatural) are now explainable and acceptable in physical terms. If we choose to think that some of the mysterious appearances and sightings people claim as supernatural are actually the result of events transpiring between gaps into our dimensions from another as-yet identified dimension, then that’s a legitimate plausibility. I don’t think that when scientists suggest extra dimensions they are being whimsical. Today, there’s no doubt left that when you physically separate a particle form its anti-particle and inject into one some energy, the other will “instantly” increase by the same amount, which is faster than the speed of light. A possible way this happens is via “linked” dimensions. Is that “supernatural”? Well, in a sense yes. We just have to leave the hocus-pocus-stick-it-up-your-chokers aspect out of it. And just to keep things into perspective, Mathematics, which we dearly love and trust, is not a Natural Science because it cannot be experimented upon. In that sense, it’s just as legitimate as Super String Theory.
Etude.
. So, the simplest solution is usually the right one and one doesn’t need a more elaborate one to explain an event or question. OK. I’ll buy that. Is that the answer each and every time? Well, we need to leave room for more.
Have you ever made a stew? At a certain point you stop putting stuff into the soup when it tastes good enough to eat.
Theoretically you could go on adding more and more---but, it wouldn't fit the pot after a while.
I view life as a bottom line practical matter. It has to work. There is a difference between "want" and "need."
We can always "want" more. But, do we really NEED more?
