This web site, your comments as evidence

by joelbear 31 Replies latest jw friends

  • WindRider

    Dear JoelBear,

    Are you saying that you do not believe there have been any actual cases of child sexual abuse among Jehovah's Witnesses; or that the very few that may have been committed are so few as to not bear looking at? Or do you think, while there have been remote cases, they were immediately handled by the elders in a proper, legal manner rather than just swept under the carpet or ignored completely?

    For what it is worth, I can quote to you a conversation I had with Dr. Larry Onoda, PH.d(psychologist) in Reseda, Calif. He is not only a wonderful Psychologist, but also was the presiding overseer of his congregation.

    I asked him if there were ever a time when he decided to quit seeing a patient and referred them elsewhere and he said, "Yes; when the patient was found to be committing incest or child sexual abuse. That is one thing that I just cannot handle, it disgusts me so and I just cannot be a worthy doctor to them, so I refer them elsewhere and also, tell appropriate authorities."

    I said, "OH, for some reason I thought you only saw Jehovah's Witnesses!" And his answer, which was chilling to me at the time, was, "I do!" He said it happens far more often than the society would like us to believe and that afterall, Jehovah's Witnesses are just imperfect humans with the same foiables and subject to the same deviancies as anyone else.

    Just some food for thought as it was for me at the time. For the record, I do not hate any Jehovah's Witness. I lost literally lifelong friends as well as family when I decided to follow my conscience and disassociate myself a few yrs. ago. But I do not hate them or anyone. I do however get incensed when I think of the hypocrisy of the organization. The lies, the half-truths, the power over life and death they wield and the power to break up families and friends. That I intensely dislike and have no love for. The people are people. I have found that most people, in and out of the organization are basically kind, want what most of us want. I have also found the opposite, both in and out. Sometimes, people suck! :)

    I am concerned that you are making sweeping generalities about the people who post here. Isnt that the very thing that you are decrying with regard to posts on JW's?

    I wish you well,

    Most sincerely,

  • seven006


    As you have admonished those on the board to ponder your comments I will in turn give you a few things to think about.

    I have noticed that ever since your visit with your mom and dad you have begun what looks like a slow 180 degree turn. This is very understandable and somewhat easy to predict given your caring manner and love of people.

    You have made implications that you may even wish to try and return to your previous religion. In your slow rotation you are beginning to rationalize things you once were so sure of. Your latest comments about the silent lambs issue and your way of feeling that it is us as exJW's that speak in a blanket manner in regard to our ex-religion's members seems a bit out of balance.

    I agree that some have a blanket hatred toward the JW religion and they may in their own right have reasons for this. I think the majority have problems with the leaders and doctrine of the JW's and not their people.

    It is the JW's who are absolute and united in their hatred for all those who are not JW's. Have you forgotten what you were taught? Everyone out side of the JW religion is considered evil and followers of a mythical spirit entity named Satan the devil. Each and every one of us as exJW's that post on this board are considered "apostates" and have an even higher level of disgust in the eyes of the "average" JW than those who are just looked at as plain evil doers.

    It is the JW's who teach their children that we are so disgustingly evil as human beings that it is a sin just to have a meal with us or consider us anything less than the opposite of themselves. The JW's do not say that some people they call apostates are good and others evil, they consider us all evil. They say we make things up to make them look bad. They tell their followers not to talk to us or read anything that we may write. We are the epitome of evil to them.

    Joel, you have been on this board for some time now. If you return to the religion will you look at us in the way that you are told too? Will you look at the friends you made here and make a list of which ones of us are evil? Will you join in the thought that we all sit at the table of demons and our lives are not deserving of even the slightest bit of love or compassion from your fellow JW's?

    Joel, do you really think that if you did return to the JW religion that ALL your new brothers and sisters will embrace you as a true friend after they shower you with their initial welcome? Do you think all JW men would welcome you and invite you to their homes to eat and associate with their families after knowing you have spent many years as a gay man? Can you find me just ONE JW that will not see a gay man as an abomination in the eyes of their god? IS Mitch an abomination in your eyes Joel? Do you think just being celibate is the answer to your real existence on this earth and will put you in favor of the JW interpretation of god? Isn't it what is in your heart that they say their god looks to see the real persons feelings?

    You say you can not become "ungay." That is not the truth according to JW teaching and you know that. Are you saying your complete existence is a lie and all this time you have spent with Mitch is just a game? Don't you know that a simple statement that you love Mitch is considered disgusting and perverted by ALL JW's? EACH and EVERY JW sees you as a pervert Joel, every one of them!

    Now, who is making the blanket statements? Who is showing real love to you? Who will always consider you a friend no matter what you choose to do? Who Accepts you as you and not you as what you agree to believe? Do you really think that Robert (You Know) will welcome you with open arms?

    Your trip to see your parents was an emotional one. You love them and you miss them. That is easy to see and easy to understand. But, if you really think the answer is going back to the religion because it is the only way your family and old friends will accept you as a fellow human being then you will find that you are sadly mistaken. A real friend sticks by his friends no matter what, have your old friends stuck by you Joel?

    It is the JW's who consider all of us as perverted and evil, not the other way around.

    Take care Joel, I hope you find peace in what ever you decide to do.


  • Mulan

    I am going to encourage everyone to lighten up on Joel. He is going through something, and deserves our patience and affection. IMO

    I DO hate Jehovahs witnesses. With a passion, too. They destroy families, and part of mine has been destroyed. My mother, agreeably is mentally ill. But, at 89, she is a devout JW, and has cut herself off from the rest of her family because we are not JW's anymore, and won't "cowtow" to her cult personality. The only ones she has a relationship with, are the ones who never were witnesses. Then she sits and pouts, and complains that none of her family visit her or care about her.

    That is what JW's have done to her. It isn't us, not my brother or myself, or my 4 children and their mates, nor my seven grandchildren!!

    I also hate it that my cousin was disfellowshipped, for nothing more than not believing they were "the truth". Then she dies of cancer within two years, and I hear rumors that "she died out of favor with God". That is just SICK!!!

    So, yes, I hate them. Not all the individuals, but I hate the religion and absolutely everything it stands for. They are a pitiful excuse for a religion, and claiming to worship God, is embarrassing to me, that I was ever a part of it.

    Marilyn (a.k.a. Mulan)
    "No one can take advantage of you, without your permission." Ann Landers

  • joelbear

    Lauralisa asks:

    What could be so currently horrifying that you'd look back towards the borg as if it were a "safe" place??????????

    Good question Lauralisa:

    It's just to hard to answer comprehensively. I just tried and it would take me writing a thesis which you don't want to read.

    For better or worse I'll try to say it in bullet points which people will no doubt rip apart for their own ends.

    1. I was in an irritated frame of mind because of the Britboy "Let's go shock the witnesses and have a gay ol time post". For reasons I have already stated, this angered me greatly.

    2. Nute posted that "every congregation harbors child molesters". This wording indicates that not only elders but rank and file publishers are all involved in this massive conspiracy. I responded calmly that hyperbole was not a good thing. Then Silent Lambs said "How dare you Joel question one thing that any victim says" to which I replied to him. I see those posts are now all gone. No need to raise them again. I think most people here saw the discussion.

    3. Joel became enraged at the bias and irrationality that the discussion board was addressing more and more issues with. Joel is particularly sensitive regarding the molestation issue and believes that a fair and unbiased discussion of this topic is ESSENTIAL for justice to take place. In his rage he decided that he could have no part of a biased discussion where these most fragile of humans might be hurt. In his overblown case of guilt for ever having decided to become a significant poster to this biased discussion format, he decided to balance the scales by declaring the most disgusting thing that he could to this discussion forum, that he was going to rejoin the witnesses.

    4. Joel observed the responses to this declaration and was shocked to see how fast some participants of this board were ready to tar and feather him for daring to make this statement. Joel decided that he did indeed need to renew his own personal viewpoint of the witnesses by having discussions with the elders and attending the meetings.

    5. Joel is concerned about the people here that he loves and he thinks that some of them are caught in a whirlpool of irrational and therefore clouded thinking about the Watchtower. Joel also wonders if constant exposure to this one way conversation is biasing and clouding his own thinking and this concerns him greatly.

    6. Joel is concerned about lurkers here who need balanced and factual information, not hyperbole and propaganda to make serious decisions about their spirituality and mental and physical welfare.


  • Skeptic

    People, Joel has a good point. This site does have a lot of anti-JW bias, and its words could be used against SilentLambs in court. Joel is actually trying to help SilentLambs.

    I share your concerns, Joel, but do not think it is going to affect SilentLambs case too badly. Nothing a competent laywer can't handle. Plus, as Seeker pointed out, the Society will just make stuff up anyway.

    Set your emotions and shock over Joel's recent posts aside and read his words again. It is very clear.

    I'm not defending anything other than rationality.
    Joel, are ZazuWitts and myself the only ones who understand what you wrote? Seeker almost got it, his first paragraph is right on the money. His misconception it that he thinks you are defending the Watchtower.

    I do agree its time to give up my efforts on this subject.
    I don't blame you! Everyone is twisting your words into saying something you are not. Because of other posts, they think you are defending the JWs and hating ex-JWs.

    There is a lot prejudice against JWs on this site. The thread on employing JWs had mostly bad experiences and few good ones.

    I try to keep my posts balanced and accurate, but too often I print only bad stuff about JWs. Seeker is usually very balanced in his posts. So does WindRider, she always trys to give the Dubs a fair hearing.

    Hope this helps people to lay off JoelBear and deal with his points.


  • lauralisa


    Thanks for making me smile... I loved your illustration. What I know about math I can count on all six fingers on one hand. Even so, I am endlessly facsinated by numbers; they can be so useful when used to define a single value, and that they can represent an "absolute".

    The really interesting part is what happens when someone tries to utilize numbers as "tools" so to speak, in order to explore the unknown, and how uncooperatively they behave if they're not in the mood. I used to be just blown away by some of the stuff my Einsteinesque ex-husband used to wrestle with: page upon page of martian hieroglyphics. (Sometimes I'd see a "5" or a "7" and it would be really exciting)

    He would explain to me, patient with my blondness and proclivity to repeat the word "why?, how after a certain point, numbers defy logic; mix enough of them together and math becomes theoretical and hypothetical and (he was loathe to use the term!) even metaphysical. Yet, he continues pushing the limits of those numbers to this day.

    Thank you for keeping it lighthearted, and yes I was trying to make an analogy between math and "real life". It strikes me that when numbers are messy in their irrationality, human beings are so much more messy......exponentially messier times infinity times eleven, especially on days that have an "r" in them.

    May your rationale be well,


  • WildHorses

    "6. Joel is concerned about lurkers here who need balanced and factual information, not hyperbole and propaganda to make serious decisions about their spirituality and mental and physical welfare."

    Joel, if this is how you feel, then why not stick around and give your view point as well, to balance it out, so to speak.

    People read all sides of an issue and then make a decision. So is it not better to have as many different views as possible?

    Just a thought.


    I don't want someone in my life I can live with. I want someone in my life I can't live without.
  • ISP

    We have a fair distribution of xJWs..and a few JWs here. There will be some that are...if you like...hate the WTS, JWs and everything else. There are more than likely good reasons for this. There are some 'JWs'...YK anyway that have hatred for any that do not submit 100% to the WTS. There are plenty of people in between.

    At the end of the day most here can evaluate and assess matters fairly. I don't see any problem.


  • WindRider


    I am really sorry if I misread or didnt understand where you were coming from on this post. I am all for everyone trying their best to discuss topics in a fair and balanced manner.

    Take care,

  • ballistic

    Joel, I agree with you in principle and you have some very good motives, however...

    Each person who reads or participates in any message board has to decide for themselves based on their own knowledge and judgement what information is exaggerated or biased. You must credit at least some (if not most) of these people with intelligence. I think what you are questioning is the nature of the message board system itself as an effective means of information disemination.

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