This web site, your comments as evidence

by joelbear 31 Replies latest jw friends

  • joelbear

    I'm not defending anything other than rationality.

    I do not have enough facts to condemn or defend anyone or any organization.

    I do agree its time to give up my efforts on this subject.


  • rhett

    Hey Joel, I thought you were leaving to become a JW once again. In case you haven't noticed most people here are apostates which would seriously hamper your attempts to come back into their brainwashing, uh, I mean way of thinking.

    I don't need to fight
    To prove I'm right
    I don't need to be forgiven.

  • julien


    I think that the point of this thread is not that you are worried about child abuse cases being harmed by threads here (in fact I'll bet you don't believe there is any abuse problem); the real issue here is that you can't stand people hating your beloved watchtower system or voicing that hate, so you are grasping at any way you can see that could in some small way punish people for it.

    You remind me exactly of the roomate I had at the time I left the so called truth. Not that it is important but he was secretly gay. When I left he was really upset; he instigated arguments, so I argued freely.. He eventually read CoC and Christian Freedom, maybe some others. Stopped going to meetings etc. Not for long though, eventually he decided to go back. He said something along the lines of "I know there are any number of problems with ___,___,__ etc. But somehow I just know its true despite that." Translation: "I am emotionally attached to the org and this belief system. I want desparately for it to be true, therefore it must be true."

  • ZazuWitts


    I am certain that the organization does read sites such as this one. And, no doubt gather information that they believe would help them in some fashion or another.

    However, it's just my opinion, that they wouldn't dare open this can of worms in the case of molestation, simply because it would set a precedent, - in short, if info from this forum were allowed in court, than other issues would also be allowed, at some future time. Court testimony is open to the public, one way or another, and they would not want such details to be broadcast widely, IMO. They will try to limit and contain re their policies in any way they can. Opening up this avenue would not be in their best it would open the door to other serious issues they want to maintain control over and keep their adherents from learning about.

  • wonderwoman77


    I do not hate JW as a whole at all. I have never said that, but I do hate acts of violence against children. I know people that were still faithful JW that were abused by elders as children. They never came foward and never had been to therapists. So no one is telling them or feeding them this. It is coming from them. I know other religions have child molestors too, but no other religion claims to be as pure and the JW org and that is what angers me. They are just like all other religions, but teach people they are different. Child molestion is real Joel, no matter if you do not want to believe it, does not change that it happens and those that are the guilty ones, NEED to be punished and not harbored in a religion.

    Joel, On a personal note, I am so surprised you posted this. You seemed like such a rational guy. I wish you the best in your journey. I hope denying your desires and mitch's is not too painful for you two....

  • lauralisa

    Hey Joel,

    Rationality is a wonderful thing! How can one not love it?

    It doesn't exist in real life, however. It is a concept and a principle which may or may NOT help in the organization of thoughts.

    Cute Math analogy:

    Numbers are finite entities and are easily managed in a typical rational argument. Unless, of course, they are not rational. Mathematic applications can get complicated, and to accommodate these unwieldy irrational 'values', there exists MANY symbols to represent irrational numbers... (my personal fav: imaginary numbers (i.) Even then - especially then (!) they are an essential part of the equation. Even though they are pesky and interfere with a nice, definitive, balanced, reproducible and correct solution, AN HONEST THEORETICAL MATHEMATICIAN WILL NOT DENY THE EXISTENCE OF THE IRRATIONAL BECAUSE IT IS A PAIN IN THE BUTT.

    Advanced theoretical math is not facsinating for everyone! It is not usually very interesting to those who aren't "into" math. Only a certain few individuals possess the unique temperment required to seek and conquer irrational numbers - or to pursue for decades solutions for equations that SHOULD WORK under their confines but remain taunting and defiant. One physicist I know swears that some of these irrational numbers actually stick out their tongues at him and say "nah-nah nah nah-nah" in the middle of the night.

    "Rational" is great, Joel, but does not trump "irrational" in problematic morality issues.

    What's up with you? You started a thread about a month ago which was very poignant, having to do with ... oh, I'll just try and find it and repost it here. What could be so currently horrifying that you'd look back towards the borg as if it were a "safe" place??????????


  • Pathofthorns

    Nice to see you around. I hope you are well.

    At the same time, I don't share the same concerns you mention on this matter. I think it comes down to whether there is enough evidence to convict or not in a court room. To me, that seems incredibly difficult unless several victims come forward.

    What concerns me more is that these victims may be pawns people are using against the WT, instead of focussing primarily on getting these people help.

    The real enemy in this case is the molester. It seems more people have painted the WT worse than the molester, and to me, that is not the case.


  • JanH


    I realize what you posted is just an analogy between math and real life, but I have to point out that "irrational numbers" aren't really irrational in the normal sense of the word. The pythagoreans allegedly thought so, being puzzled by inability to express certain values in neat numbers, but it was really a flaw in their expectations about the universe and about math. PI for example is an "irrational number", but there is nothing irrational about the ratio of the diameter to the circumference of a circle. Yet, the name stuck. Lastly, imaginary numbers aren't irrational. It's a different set altogether (there are irrational imaginary numbers too, of course .

    - Jan
    "Doctor how can you diagnose someone with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and then act like I had some choice about barging in here right now?" -- As Good As It Gets

  • julien

    Irrational as in cannot be expressed as a ratio of two integers.

  • lauralisa

    Joel, can you remember the sentiments which compelled you to post the following... and what has happened to you???? You don't know me, but I'm concerned about your well-being and am wondering -and confused - about what could possibly illicit such a departure of character and change of heart. (I also know you have no obligation whatsoever to reveal anything of a personal nature about yourself on this board and respect any choice you make with regard to furthering this discussion. My e-mail is open, however, if you are so inclined)

    The enemy is the control Dec 15, 2001 16:29

    Waiting for the demise of the Watchtower Society?

    Don't hold your breath.

    Even if it collapsed tomorrow, its followers would simply find something else to follow, because, they are followers.

    The enemy of life and happiness is the inability to freely live and be happy.

    We see clearly, that many of our friends here are still struggling with unhappiness and depression, including myself at times, even years after not being witnesses.

    Some look to their years of being witnesses as the reason for their unhappiness. I do not discount these feelings.

    However, for myself, I wish to look at the things I can change about myself that will make me happier.

    The enemy is the control we allow negative thoughts (including but not exclusive to those we picked up or developed from being witnesses)to have over our lives.

    take care


    (subsequent responses to your thread:)

    I love your posts, Joel. What a great pep talk! You need to go tour on the seminar circuit! I would be the first to sign up! (Ha! Ha!)



    Yes, Joel, I have often thought about the proliferation of cult groups in the United States from the 19th century especially. If people are vulnerable and looking for "cookie cutter" answers, there will always be some spiritual charlatan to give them what they want.

    I love living with uncertainty, ambiguity, without a security blanket, something I never dreamed I would. Here's to freedom!



    Hey Joel,Sometimes you make some pretty thoughtful cool posts.This is one of them...OUTLAW

    The Golden Rule:The people with the gold make the rules.

    In another thread entitled "Conrol Tactics", you stated:

    I posted in another thread that the control tactics are probably ones of the things we look back on with a range of sadness to anger. Here are a short list of control tactics I found harmful as one of Jehovah's Witnesses and whose wounds I still need healing from.

    1. Shunning

    Clearly the most destructive control tactic. Threatening to take away a person's emotional, mental and sometimes physical support network is the ultimate in psychological blackmail. Think as I think and do as I say or be prepared to face the world alone. I shudder to think of the harm this has caused.

    2. End time threats

    I rank this a close 2nd to shunning in its destructive capabilities to someone's life. It has the power to cripple a person's mind, stealing their dreams and putting them in a box to await some future time period when they can open the box and look upon their dreams again. Think of the millions of life decisions made on the basis of "the end is almost upon us."

    3. Manipulation by marking

    As we know, the idea of behavior modification through peer pressure is widespread among witnesses. Don't go out in service enough, then you don't get invited to get togethers. Attend a questionable movie, don't get called on at the Watchtower study, etc. Similar in its insidiousness to shunning is the constant evaluation of your worth based on viewed behavior with feedback ranging from loss of participation to public humiliation.

    I'm sure there are others than could be listed but these are the 3 that came to my mind. All 3 have left their mark on my soul.


    I loved this thread, and replied back, hoping for more dialogue from you:

    Re: Control Tactics Dec 11, 2001 12:19

    Hi Joelbear,

    Another one that I know is experienced by a huge number of people:

    Being taught that you are an invalid life form

    Although the borg has written about the fact that some souls find that they have different sexual orientations, those individuals cannot practice behaviors that FEEL NORMAL to them and still be found acceptable. They must live a life of continual denial of their needs, sacrificing most things that provide "quality of life" - i.e. a mate, self-honesty, self-acceptance, love, sexual gratification, companionship....

    To remain "safe" within the congregations, one's choices are:

    Live your entire life in denial of what your true nature is in order to be categorized as "salvageable" and worthy of Jehovah's approval

    Believing that you are a freak of nature - a victim of inherited genetic "imperfection"

    Keeping your inner world secret from everyone you are acquainted with, or risk being categorized as "bad association" or as you put it, "marked"; such a choice means one lives in constant fear and anxiety of everything they do and say

    Kind of a high price to pay to remain in the confines of an organization with serious credibility issues in and of itself.

    The list of mental, physical and even social "orientations" is too long to even try and define, but can be substituted for sexual orientation in the above no-win situation....

    Thank you for an interesting topic.


    If the world didn't suck, we would all fall off

    Edited to get all those forum code mistakes corrected DOH

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