Need Help FAST!
Sorry, Spin Doctor, i stil don't buy it. I have seen enough proof on the numerous threads regarding this UN issue to convince me of a few things.
Since before the application by the WBTS in '91 the requirements of supporting the ideals of the UN Charter have been in effect. PROVEN
The occasional literature which shows favorable ideas in regards to the UN just happen to be the ones that were submitted to the UN as a requirement for continued status as DPI.
The annual renewal of the DPI application by the leaders of the WBTS, have had the criteria and the 'wording' of UN support maybe, just maybe, missed once. Not for 10 years.
And the fact that I just can't believe that somehow the wording had been overlooked all those years. It's probably easier to apply for DPI status than it is to get a car loan.
As far as calling it a mistake? Well tell that to ................
(sorry not enough space for that)
Bringing reproach on the WT has nothing at all to do with bringing reproach on "Jehovah's name". The WT has done this to themselves.
Funny...SpinDoctor has just reiterated the same exact response that I got when I confronted an elder at the local KH. That's odd...do they practice that little spill or in is it engrained into their heads to make excuses for the org??? I hear practice makes perfect.
Sadly and honestly, I think it would be a waste of your breath to try and convince them that the WTS has done something wrong. I agree with what Mum said.
Spin Doctor said:"Our resignation should not be taken as showing cowardice but as showing courage. The perception our immediate resignation gave is secondary to ensuring Jehovah’s name is never be reproached and to ensuring our brothers and sisters are not stumbled."
The only problem with that, is the fact that the WTS did not resign until it's members and ex members started flooding the WTS with phone calls asking for an explanation.
Had many people not called them to ask, they would not have resigned.
I don't want someone in my life I can live with. I want someone in my life I can't live without.
I wish I could find it but I had a hand out that was given to me years ago. It was how to handle yourself in a hearing. If you are asked questions just answer either yes, no or I don't know. Never elaborate because remember anything you say will be used against you. The JW elders are a sleazy bunch of bastards that come across as your friend so that you will open up and tell them how you feel. Then after they will use it against you for disciplinary reasons. Just remember they are representatives of a corporation and their first priority is keeping that corporation or congregation "clean" from undesirables and they don't give a s*** about you as an individual.
If you don't mind then its Ok but just be aware that you have been warned. The spindoctor is right they are good at twisting things and putting a spin on the truth so that by the time they leave they could have you buying anything they say. They like and look forwards to individual's that don't talk back to them because remember they believe they have the truth.
One point I can make, if they admit to the WT/GB making an error then turn it around and say to them, If they are spirit directed, How could they make these error? What does that do for a persons faith in such an organization? I used this argument to a couple of elders once and for the first time I seen a them speechless.
All the best,
TweetieBird, here are some things I know about the UN situation:
In 1991 several people in the Writing Department at Bethel decided to get a UN library pass. In order to do that, they had to become associated with the DPI (Department of Public Information of the UN) as an NGO (Non Governmental Organization. In 1992 the Watchtower Society was officially signed up as an associated NGO.
Given what Hawkaw has discovered, namely, that almost all of the information directly available at the UN library is available through other sources, it's not clear why they would need a library pass. The man who actually used the pass most often is one Ciro Aulicino, a researcher in the Dept. He apparently got permission from his boss, one Harry Peloyan. The latter is actually the editor and head of production for Awake! magazine. Both have been in Bethel 40-50 years. They had to get permission from at least one Governing Body member, since the application forms required the signature of a top official of the NGO. This GB member in 1991 was Lloyd Barry. Barry was listed on the original application as the corporate official, and Aulicino was listed as the contact man. In 1998 Barry died, and so another GB member (I don't know which one) has been required to sign the yearly renewal application since then.
In 1991 there appeared in Awake! an article about the UN that appeared to non-JWs to be praising the UN and its goals. It was so cleverly worded, however, that JWs could easily read between the lines and, using their prior knowledge of how severely the Society had always bashed the UN, conclude that it was a tongue-in-cheek article that was really bashing the UN in the usual manner. Each year since then, Awake! has run articles concerning UN issues. These articles were necessary because the Society had to include sample material with the yearly renewal application that showed that it was continuing to actively promote the goals of the UN that it had agreed to support by reason of becoming associated with the DPI as an NGO in the first place.
While I don't doubt that the original reason for these men signing up was to get a library pass, I think that they and a few other highly placed WTS people quickly realized that they could use their NGO status to advance other WTS goals. During the 1990s the Society was heavily involved in lobbying various political agencies in the U.S. and Europe for more religious rights, or for less restrictions on their activities. One of their most effective means of lobbying was to address the European Human Rights Commission about things like abuse in Russia. I'm sure that the associated NGO status really helped get them in the door on this.
So one way or another, the Society has become involved in politics because it is now involved in lobbying political bodies for various reasons. Various JWs may try to argue that such lobbying is not really playing politics, but it certainly is. For example, Martin Luther King lobbied various political organizations in the 1960s for rights for black Americans. No one disputes that King was involved in politics by doing this.
JWs might try to compare the Society's current lobbying to going to court to get justice. This does not work, though, because going to court is simply demanding an enforcement of already-existing law, or of clearing up fuzzy interpretations of that law. But the Society's present activities are not like that, because they are actually trying to get laws changed -- which is precisely the goal of politics. The Bible specifically allows for Christians to get justice in "worldly" courts, but the Society has always taught that it is wrong to get involved in politics.
My opinion is that the men who actually set up the NGO status, Aulicino and Peloyan, did not initially realize that their desire for a UN library card would compromise the Society's teachings about the UN. However, the fact that Peloyan, in his position as editor-in-chief of Awake!, obviously allowed or caused an apparently supportive article to appear in his magazine proves that he, at least, knew exactly what was involved. I have no doubt that all of the others who actually have taken advantage of the associated NGO status, such as Aulicino and certain men in the Legal Department, knew perfectly well that they were compromising long-standing Watchtower principles. That's why hardly anyone outside that very tight circle knew anything about the NGO status. I know from certain insiders that most Bethelites had no idea what was going on. That's really the reason they withdrew so quickly after their faux pas became public. The hypocritical officials could not justify their wheelings and dealings to other officials who were not in on it.
Don't let the elders intimidate you. They're only men, and they will quickly fold if you stand up to them. Do rely on some of the fine people on this board to help you. Let your husband run interference, and by all means have him present when you talk to the elders. I'm guessing that you're not going to tell the elders to just piss off because you want your son to see what kind of nonsensical answers they'll come up with. You might even consider having him around to watch the show.
I hope this information is of some help.
In 1991 there appeared in Awake! an article about the UN that appeared to non-JWs to be praising the UN and its goals.
Do you happen to know what month in '91 this article appeared?
Two articles in the Sept. 8, 1991 Awake!. Note particularly the last paragraph of the 2nd article.
When the issue of the WT's involvement with the UN comes up. Ask the elders this, "If i sold my soul to the devil so that i could be a good jehovah's witness, would i be D'F'd?"
When they answer "Yes, most definately."
Say to them, "But isnt that what WTBTS has done?"
When they start tieing them selves in knots start mentioning some of the facts above. you can bet your bottom dollar that the "society"
hasnt informed them of all the information that is there. They should leave shortly after this point to seek more advise.
This advise is only advisable if you are ready to be D'F'd by the way.
if you follow this please post there response.
Good luck, however you choose to play it.
Ask them this. Was not Satan the first liar? Are not all those who lie following him?
Show the elders the letter from Paul Gillies. Paul lies like an old oreiental rug. Prove that using the Paul Hoeffel letter establishing the facts. Shoe how the WTS was indeed aware of the CRITERIA, as they submitted those UN ass kissing articles.
Establish that the WTS lies. Establish that they kept it secret. Did the elders know? Guess it was secret after all....
Print out all the stuff. Push it in their faces.
I just told my wife and she was devasted.
In response to the "someone, somewhere made a mistake" theory you could say:
"OK, so if I understand what you're saying, someone, somewhere could make the "mistake" of having an adulterous affair for TEN YEARS, and as long as they dumped their lover immediately upon being discovered, that would be acceptable??"
In response to the "we did not want Jehovah's name to come under reproach" theory you could say:
"Well, if it was WRONG, has there not already been reproach brought on Jehovah's name?? An affair is still an affair, 10 years is still 10 years, and whether it was secret or not, it still brought reproach on Jehovah's name. Remember, the angels were watching, so were the Devil and his demons. Just because JWs themselves were unaware of the goings-on does not mean there was no reproach in all that time."
and one more thing:
"Oh yeah.... how was it that APOSTATES were able to uncover and expose this reproachful behaviour?? Are you really SURE that the Governing Body can claim SPIRIT DIRECTION when it's fairly obvious that the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing??"
Just my 2 cents' worth. Will be thinking about you!