I did it.... :(
i couldnt help myself and i talk to my mom this morning about some of this stuff. i didnt mean to but it just came out and before i knew it i was crying and arguing with her. well not really arguing but getting excited. i dont think she knew i was crying but maybe. (shes blind)
she was just sitting at the kitchen table alone and i went in and asked her what she thought of the watchtower article saying its ok for wives to celebrate xmas with their unbelieving husbands if their conscience allows them. she said she didnt see the article so i told her what mag it was and what it said. she said she didnt understand it either and that it sounded very strange to her too. i asked her how it could be wrong for one person to do things like shop for presents and go to a holiday party and not wrong for someone else. and i asked her what the scriptural basis could possibly be. she said the scripture that says 'wives be in subjection to your husbands'. i said 'so then if a dh wants her to do something unchristian then its ok?'. she couldnt answer and said it didnt make sense to her but if they put it in the watchtower then there has to be a scriptural basis for it. i started talking to her about how can they keep making changes all the time. she said 'the light keeps getting brighter'. i said 'the scriptures say the same thing they did the last time they quoted them so how can they change the meaning now?'. she said that they pray on the matter and intensely discuss the scripture and if jehovah reveals new light to them then the old meaning can change. i said then what about all those people whos lives suffered, familys cut them off, lost friends ect because they were disfellowshiped for doing something that 'new light' says is now ok. she said 'well i dont know anyone who was disfellowshiped for celebrating xmas, you arent supposed to do it but you dont get disfellowshiped for it'. i said maybe not but you are disciplined, lose your privledges, and are looked down upon, even shunned. and what about other things they have changed that used to get people disfellowshiped how can they do that to people and not go back and say 'you are now welcome back because 'new light' says what you did was ok'? she said well i dont know what other things you mean so you'd have to show me. then i asked her if its ok to pray for a df'd person and she said if you feel they're heart is good you can pray for a df'd family member but not for others. i said well according to the new watchtower shes wrong they have changed that too. she asked have i been on apostate websites and i said no i am looking up and researching stuff because i need to know for sure about this org. after the way i was treated when i was df'd i cannot believe that there is any way jehovah was behind it. she said that she feels they (the brothers on the committee) were wrong in my case and that jehovah would rectify it and they would have to answer for jehovah for what they did. i said that they were just doing what the society told them to and that the whole society in my opinion wasnt under gods direction. i said that i was thinking of coming back but i needed to understand how jehovah could be behind an org that hurt people by kicking them out and then revealing new light after their lives are in shambles, so i was researching and everything i read makes no sense and doesnt fit with jehovah being behind it. he would not do that to people who love him and try to serve him the best they can. i said that every watchtower article i read now changes something..how can that be? she said that again about the 'new light'. i said 'mom, jehovah is perfect why would he keep making mistakes that cost people happiness and marraiges ect and then reveal new light? he would reveal the truth from the beginning! she said that the GB was not perfect and made mistakes and that Satan also had to factor in. I said 'Satan gets into the watchtower mom??! you are telling me that satan can influence what is written in the watchtower??. she said yes since they are imperfect satan could influence them but that jehovah was very involved in the watchtower so i shouldnt start thinking that satan was taking it over. i told her that i didnt think at all that jehovah was involved but that they were making up all the rules themselves. she asked me if i was turning against the organization. i said no i'm just telling you what i think. she said so what am i supposed to do not go to the meeting?! i said no i'm not saying that. she got mad and said 'so what are you saying that you dont think this is the truth?' i said no i dont think it is. she said so what do you think the truth is? i said i dont know. i dont know if i'm right or wrong but i'm just saying what i think. she said she was glad i said i didnt know if i was right or wrong. i guess she figures there is still hope for me.
anyway i the conversation got more animated than i am giving it credit here and i couldnt help crying but i dont know why. i really wasnt planning to talk to her at all. but i did and now i guess its out there. i did make sure not to mention any of the stuff that i know from rays book. i almost wanted to puke though when she kept saying that the GB meditates on the scriptures, intensely prays on them and then interpretes them for us. if she only knew the truth.
i had to go to work so i dont know what she is thinking about me. i guess i'll find out when i get home. i hope she didnt tell anyone else what i said. i will have to be more careful next time not to open my big mouth. i know i shouldnt have but every time i see my mom alone i want to sit down and talk to her now. its too hard to put on a pretense. i am looking into a roommate possibility so maybe i will be out of there soon. i hope so.
but do you all think that she responded like someone who has doubts of her own and could possibly be reached?
It sounds like your mother loves you and wants you to be happy. Be gentle with her. At least for now she seems to be listening pretty well to you. Tread carefully...once those doors (her ears) are closed, they are hard to open back up. Trust me. I had this same conversation with my mother a few months ago. Unfortunately, I didn't take it gently - I pushed too hard - and we don't talk anymore.
Your chat with you mom sounds exactly like the one I had with my mom.
Based on what she said in response to your concerns, at this stage in her thinking I can't detect any instability at all in her loyalty/trust in the Org or GB. But you never know down the road if she personally experiences some hypocrisy/mistreatment somethings you said may resurface in her mind. I know you probably feel a little better since you've been upfront with her.
thanks for the warning, i will be more careful for sure. maybe i will not make such firm statements like 'i dont think its the truth' or things like that. i should have started slower and just left it with the magazine changes and let her sit on that.
oh well, i dont think she will say anything to my dad but she was out with my sister today so i dont know if she would talk to her. i'm not going to say anything else unless she asks me about it.
well tonight when i got home my mom said she listened to the watchtower article 2 or 3 times and she said that actually it isnt anything new about it really (the one on celebrating xmas). she said its always been a matter of conscience for people with unbelieving mates because they have to be in subjection. i dont know i couldnt really dispute it with her. i'm beginning to wonder if i am wrong and maybe the devil has been trying to lead people away by means of ray franz and boards like this. i dont know it doesnt seem like he would be making up the stuff in his book but with the devil i guess anythings possible. i dont think so though
I really commend you at how you handled it with your mom. You were respectful and made good points. Of course you cried, thats normal... you have been taught to not think independantly and you felt very strange confronting your mom with your new thoughts.
i said 'mom, jehovah is perfect whyI'm sorry, but this made me chuckle. Not that it was funny, but it shows how Witnesses will make an excuse for anything. So basically the Word of God going into the brother's ears at Bethel is sometimes intervened by Satan? Pulleeze!
would he keep making mistakes that cost people happiness and marraiges ect and then
reveal new light? he would reveal the truth from the beginning! she said that the GB was
not perfect and made mistakes and that Satan also had to factor in. I said 'Satan gets
into the watchtower mom??! you are telling me that satan can influence what is written
in the watchtower??. she said yes since they are imperfect satan could influence them
but that jehovah was very involved in the watchtower so i shouldnt start thinking that
satan was taking it over.
Dont beat yourself up... keep researching for yourself. Not just with anti-JW websites but neutral and pro sites. Then read read read read! Pray for help and you'll get the answers.
Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.
Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it.
Another thing.... a JW would be disfellowshipped for celebrating holidays but its acceptable if you have a worldly mate?
This makes me understand why so many would want to marry out of the organization.... you can celebrate holidays and get away with it!!
Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.
Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it.
Flower - THINK - look over your first post here and ask yourself the same questions you said to your mother - about the changes.Those are YOUR questions. What are YOUR answers. Never mind what anyone here says. Do the answers to your questions make sense when the WT gives them? Does a loving god destroy families who want to serve him? Does a just god change his mind or give a different interpretation to things that in the end make honest hearted people suffer.
Truth is something we find within ourselves. Read study - not only what you see here but go to the library - check the net - Does the org make quotes that are out of context? Do they change the rules - one set for this group and another set for a different group? How can it be right for some and not others. And how can some be punished for things that others are allowed to do?
There is a truth out there - search for it with all your heart and don't let fear or lies or even the half-truths stop you from finding it.
I still do not have the answers - well not all of them but I do have a few
Keep the mind working Flower
Rejoice in the healing and not in the pain.
Rejoice in the challenge overcome and not in the past hurts.
Rejoice in the present - full of love and joy.
Rejoice in the future for it is filled with new horizons yet to be explored. - Lee Marsh 2002
She sounds like she can be reached.
Dont PUSH it.
Just a bit here and there, dont drive her nuts with it.
Rule number 1 for deprogramming (Exit Councelling):
NEVER become involved in an arguement.
If there is emotion involved, forget it until you are calm.
If the other person is yelling or loud, forget it till they are calm.
Flower, your Mom reacted just as any good Witness would....first with slight confusion, then the "mind block" kicks in, and the "if it is said by the boys in Brooklyn, it must be right" conditioning comes into play. This phrase is a definite thought blocker, and is intended to keep people from thinking too much about anything that might not be favorable to the WTBTS.
The same can be said for the "Jehovah will set it right" schtick. You were df'd because of gross irregularities in the judicial committee process, but no one will speak up or do anything because "Jehovah will take care of it". That's a convenient way to avoid looking at what is really happening. JWs always pass the responsibility off to "Jehovah" rather than doing what is right. Look at the whole pedophile issue. Don't go to the authorities, let Jehovah take care of it.....and let the victims suffer because we don't want to "bring reproach" on the congregation. Total load of bullpucky!
As far as the statement that "no one has ever gotten df'd for celebrating Christmas" goes, I can testify that this is not true. My sister and brother-in-law had become inactive, and they were disfellowshipped for putting up Christmas decorations. It may not be official policy, but it IS done.
Additionally, think about the statement that Satan is influencing the GB. Is it really wise to belong to an organization that demands total obedience, when that organization is being manipulated by Satan?
Should all JWs not be encouraged to think for themselves and discard any teachings that do not appear to be right and proper? Should they not be encouraged to question things? Rather, anyone who questions is marked and avoided. Anyone who questions and makes their questions known to others is disfellowshipped and shunned? Does this sound like something from God?
Did Jesus tell his disciples to just shut up and do everything they were told? No, he did not. He taught, he reasoned with them, and he proved his points so that his disciples could feel confident that what they were taught was true. Does the Society teach, reason, and prove? Not in my experience. It has always been, "wait on Jehovah", "don't question the Slave", "don't run ahead of Jehovah", "don't engage in independent thinking".....as well as many other catch phrases. This, Flower, is cult indoctrination. Let the cult do the thinking...you just shut up and do as you are told. Don't read anything other than what the cult puts out...everything else is "evil".
Your research and discussion is something very new to you, and it is very frightening. I think almost everyone on this board has gone through the fear that "maybe they're right and I'm wrong". This, also, is cult indoctrination. If you are so inclined, pray about the matter, and ask for discernment and comfort. Ask that you might be able to overcome the "programming" and think clearly about matters. Listen to what your heart and your intellect are telling you.....not the programming you've received.
You've put cracks in the cult shell. Even if you try to stuff all your doubts and deny all the truths you've learned, I think you'll find that they will refuse to be buried. Once you have started to break free of the mind control, I think you will find it difficult to just accept everything again without questioning. And questioning is fatal to the JW mindset.
Give your mother time. Work on getting yourself strong. Living well and happily is one of the best things you can do to help her see the truth about the "truth".