At first glance, most people would say that there are lot’s of very good JW’s around. OK, we reason, maybe they are a little misguided, but most of them mean well. We particularly like to think that way about our friends and loved one’s who are in the organisation, we don’t want to regard them as being unkind and uncaring. Look what Joelbear says about this:
I have the same core values now that I did when I was an active witness and so do the great majority of the witnesses that I grew up with, pioneered with and served at Bethel with. They are not the monsters that are portrayed here. When you make statements like, Jehovah’s Witnesses are stupid, hateful, evil, etc, you are talking about my mother, my friends, people who I love dearlyI also used to feel exactly the same way as Joelbear does here. Then I grew up! Even as an 18 year old witness I was aware that there was a pecking order operating that you did not see in other families, a pecking order that did not follow a natural course of fierce loyalty to ones next of kin. What came first was JHVH/ WTBTS/FDS. The natural loyalty to one’s loved one’s had been gradually extinguished by years of JW teaching. In short, our dub parents had actually sold their family loyalty to Brooklyn. In so doing they had, in fact, sold a little bit of their own soul.
It goes further than that. If Joelbear does go back into the faith, he will have to surrender his sexual life and become celibate. The sex drive has got to surely be one of our strongest urges. If that is surrendered then a big part of Joel disappears with it. A bit more soul.
You can see where I am going with this. As bits of our personality are washed out of our beings with witness demands we do become demeaned. Our free will is eroded, our love hierarchy is altered dramatically to the extent that we will sacrifice our very life to the will of someone else. That’s a lot of soul to sell!
So, coming back to our original question re ‘are their any good JW’s around’, I would suggest that there are not very many. Not very many at all. I don’t see how there can be, when humankind is relegated to such a low priority in the Jehovah’s witness religion, witnesses have so many agenda’s operating that they are simply, IMO, not to be trusted. Whilst I would not go overboard and say that the witnesses are ALL ‘stupid, hateful, evil’, I would say that most of them have unwittingly learned to be quite stupid, quite hateful and quite evil.
They just don’t realise it.
Bring on the dancing girls!
Good comments E-man,
All I want to add is that people tend to become less stupid, hateful, and evil when the leave JWs.
Something's gotta give---
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
Interesting point, and one I'd not actually thought about before.
The high-control group 'norm' is for 'children' to to be 'stolen away' by the cult (I treat high-control group and cult as synonyms). The parents 'lose' their children.
In the Borg, it would appear that the reverse can happen too; the 'cult' 'steals' the parents (or at least can have a delitrious effect on the parental bond) from the children.
Lose your parents; be born a Witness and leave...
People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...
Whilst I would not go overboard and say that the witnesses are ALL ‘stupid, hateful, evil’, I would say that most of them have unwittingly learned to be quite stupid, quite hateful and quite evil.
Damn, I hate "me too" messages, but I just couldn't agree more with you, Eman. See my last two postings on http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=18628&site=3 for one example why I do.
I so enjoy your posts... I always seem to read yours first as I have come to learn that you are one of the rare breeds... you do not judge anyone for anything. Your post hit so many chords with me!! I have never thought of what you had to say in that way. God...wanna start a religion? I'll be ya first follower! *winking*
Interesting, a sort of death by Religious injection for absolute freedom from pain. The act that that makes the lady feel OK says it all.
I remember a similar lady exclaiming at a male horse's appearance once (5 legs, know what I mean, wink) and I remaarked that it must be awful for a stallion to be gelded.
She responded by saying that it was no different than castrating a man, no big deal at all. She was serious.
Bring on the dancing girls!
You're very kind Britboy, but sometimes I can be a nasty bastard!
I don't care much about religious beliefs. I'm sure that if God wanted me to do something then he would tell me. I can't stomach all these Holy Joe's, they remind me of teachers pets, all shouting Me me me me me!
My biggest gripe against JW's is their shocking lack of awareness of social issues. They just use any disaster to try to prove their point of view. They rarely give to charity, let alone actively collect for one. All they are concerned with is who is right, the "Issue" is what they used to call it.
During the Romanian revolution my Mum told me that a Manchester brother was collecting stuff to transport over there in his lorry, food and clothes, etc. I applauded loudly until she told me that everything was for "the brothers". I was nauseated.
Then again, how often do you see a dub on this site comment on a social need for it's own sake, without trying to align it to something the WTBTS have prophesied to get maximum mileage out of it.
The only time I can recall a dub showing any concern at all for a non-dub was when Friday (Yadirf, now) spoke feelingly on behalf of persons with suicidal emotions. Mind you, he is an inactive dub!
Bring on the dancing girls!
I've been reading a very eye-opening book the last few days by M. Scott Peck, MD called People of the Lie.
In it, he attempts to identify evil that exists in individuals and groups.
Here's one quote that I found particularly enlightening, considering what we know about JWs (italics mine):
A predominant characteristic, however, of the behavior of those I call evil is scapegoating. Because in their hearts they consider themselves above reproach they must lash out at anyone who does reproach them. They sacrifice others to preserve their self-image of perfection. Take a simple example of a six-year-old boy who asks his father, "Daddy, why did you call Grand-mommy a bitch?" "I told you to stop bothering me," the father roars. "Now you're going to get it. I'm going to teach you not to use such filthy language, I'm going to wash your mouth out with soap. Maybe that will teach you to clean up what you say and keep your mouth shut when you're told." Dragging the boy upstairs to the soap dish, the father inflicts this punishment on him. In the name of "proper discipline" evil has been committed.He goes on to quote from his earlier work The Road Less Travelled where he defines evil "as the exercise of political power - that is, the imposition of one's will upon others by overt or covert coercion - in order to avoid ... spiritual growth" (ellipsis his).
Scapegoating works through a mechanism psychiatrists call projection. Since the evil, deep down, feel themselves to be faultless, it is inevitable that when they are in conflict with the world they will invariably perceive the conflict as they world's fault. Since they must deny their own badness, they must perceive others as bad.
In other words, the evil attack others instead of facing their own failures. Spiritual growth requires the acknowledgement of one's need to grow. If we cannot make that acknowledgement, we have no option except to attempt to eradicate the evidence of our imperfection.Scapegoating is the very characteristic of JWs that is described when we talk about 99.9% of the world's population being destroyed at Armageddon. It is this same characteristic that is used in the treatment of people who leave the Organization, the disfellowshipped, the disassociated, and obviously those who are referred to as apostates.
"The world" is the primary scapegoat that is used to draw people into the JWs. Dissenters and those who do not conform within the ranks are secondary scapegoats, which are used to keep people from leaving.
Strangely enough, evil people are often destructive because they are attempting to destroy evil. The problem is that they misplace the locus of the evil. Instead of destroying others they should be destroying the sickness within themselves. As life often threatens their self-image of perfection, they are often busily engaged in hating and destroying that life - usually in the name of righteousness.In a footnote a bit later in this chapter he also writes:
Since the primary motive of the evil is disguise, one of the places evil people are most likely to be found is within the church. What better way to conceal one's evil from oneself, as well as from others, than to be a deacon or some other highly visible form of Christian within our culture? In India I would suppose that the evil would demonstrate a similar tendency to be "good" Hindus or "good" Moslems. I do not mean to imply that the evil are anything other than a small minority among the religious or that the religious motives of most people are in any way spurious. I mean only that evil people tend to gravitate toward piety for the disguise and concealment it can offer them. - italics mineSo, not only does the belief system itself perpetuate evil, evil people are drawn to it because it affords them a facade of righteousness. What better way to draw evil people into an evil system than to go out looking for them, converting them to the belief system and then promoting them up the ranks, so that they can inflict their own evil upon the good among them?
The more of this book I read, the more convinced I become that the WTS is evil in one of its purest forms. It would be very interesting if Dr. Peck examined the JWs and WTS (not to mention other cults) in light of his theories on evil.
If anyone was wondering about whether to read this book or not, I would highly recommend it.
edited for clarification
It is not persecution for an informed person to expose a certain religion as being false. - WT 11/15/63
I agree with you that "People of the Lie" is a good book to read. Just got done reading it. Also, "Road Less Traveled" is excellent, too. Pretty much anything Peck writes is good soul searching material.
I love to read your post. Like Britboy, I look for yours first. But I must say that I really don't view jws as hateful or evil, except the ones making decisions for others. Most people by nature are followers and love to be spoon fed, not maliciously evil. This proves they are not mature in their thinking. Jws sure have missed the point of love that JC talked about. I just pity them and try to control what "damage" they may want to inflict on my family.
just my .02 j2bf
joy2bfree, Englishman, Scully--
I agree with all of you. How is that for riding the fence!
Seriously, I believe that the majority of witnesses are 1. stupid, 2. sheep (looking for someone, anyone to tell them what to do) and 3. evil (deep down, anyone who condones or believes that the world is going to end and only they will survive-well, you all know that answer).
The stupid part is obvious. Why educate when you can keep the masses down with illiteracy? This is figurative. They only read WTS books and mags. No college. Think back in history and look around you today. The Taliban teaches similar to the WTS; our religion only, no questions. Look at kids at bad public schools. They really can't read, so they can't question the status quo. The borg wants this lack of questioning. Education brings questions.
My firm belief is something that my mother always said-"people are like sheep; watch them in a line. They always line up behind the others, even when the next line might be empty". This to me means that most (not all-my self included and I would say most on this board) people want to feel apart of something. They seem to want to be told what to do. At the same time, most people are not leaders. Hence it is that much easier for the borg to come in and take control. They are preying on the lowest common denominator in human behavior. It also makes taking responsibility for your own actions easier.
Evil-I do believe they are evil. Watching the antics of the elders and the family members of such was eye opening. Watching the nasty behavior exhibited by publishers was even more eye opening. What Scully brought out about evil is right on. I can honestly look at my family and say that a few of them, upright JW's, are evil. They have put the borg above all else. The others are stupid sheep.
I feel heart sick for Joelbear. He must make his own decision. I will only say, I would not go back for any amount of money. Nothing could make be step foot in a KH. When my mother dies, it will all be done in a funeral home. I will talk. I don't care if every elder in Chicago turns out, I will be heard. I will not allow JW talk of paradise. We will talk about her life and what she contributed to society (not much actually-she does not believe in social programs).
Anyway, again Englishman, you brought up some wonderful points and generated even more interesting posts.
"I used to be Snow White, then I drifted." Mae West